Free Innocent FLDS Children Now!

[Fiannan]

Elphaba, you are really caught up on that one single point, aren't you? Why? Also, I have already said that I was talking about some congressman's comments and if they were stated as a reson for approval of funds to undertake this whole misguided adventure in congress then one can assume that (since the expeditions and outposts did get approved) then this was not just some fringe idea. I will say also that I am not going to waste time exploring 19th. Century congressional records nor am I going to fly back to the institute library and find you page number and book. I know enough about rhetorics to also realize why you are making such a big deal over a rather trivial portion of a post dealing with a major issue.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

Elphaba, you are really caught up on that one single point, aren't you? <snip> know enough about rhetorics to also realize why you are making such a big deal over a rather trivial portion of a post dealing with a major issue.

Blah blah blah.

Originally Posted by Fiannan
They [US government] thought placing a military outpost filled with dashing single men would lure these poor women out of this horrible cult. Emphasis mine.

I did not write this. You did.

Yes it is a minor issue. At the same time, because it is so simple it is a perfect way to demonstrate how you fabricate things in your posts that are not true, but can never provide proof when called on it.

People on this thread don't realize that we have history. That is how I know to call you on your posts that are fabrications. It is also how I know you never provide proof of your claims, mostly because you can't.

I wonder, in this thread, how many other things have you written that are not true? How many things are people reading, thinking you know what you are talking about when you do not. Especially regarding historical facts about Mormon history.

Stop writing things that are not true.

Elphaba

[Fiannan]

Yes it is a minor issue. At the same time, because it is so simple it is a perfect way to demonstrate how you fabricate things in your posts that are not true, but can never provide proof when called on it.

Guess what, it was not a lie -- if you want to believe that then fine, go right ahead. You conveniently ignore any references I made, or source, for the whole Utah Wars thing I notice -- why is that?

People on this thread don't realize that we have history. That is how I know to call you on your posts that are fabrications. It is also how I know you never provide proof of your claims, mostly because you can't.

I think people who have been here a while know that one of your favorite rhetorical devices is to call into question minor points and demand a reference. Sure, if I wanted to play this game all I could say is prove something I have said is a lie and list the date and also provide a source to actually prove your point. There.

I wonder, in this thread, how many other things have you written that are not true? How many things are people reading, thinking you know what you are talking about when you do not. Especially regarding historical facts about Mormon history.

Stop writing things that are not true.

Elphaba

Well, why not exercise your synaptic superiority and prove I am a liar!

[Fiannan]

Note: The first quote is from Elphaba:

Blah blah blah.

Originally Posted by Fiannan
They [US government] thought placing a military outpost filled with dashing single men would lure these poor women out of this horrible cult. Emphasis mine.

I did not write this. You did.

Yes it is a minor issue. At the same time, because it is so simple it is a perfect way to demonstrate how you fabricate things in your posts that are not true, but can never provide proof when called on it.

Then again...

Nor were Mormon women the oppressed victims waiting for liberation that many Americans, including some of the approaching soldiers, assumed. Salt Lake wives poured hot lead into molds to make bullets and sewed blankets into overcoats for militiamen. When an army quartermaster asked Mrs. Albert Carrington if she would cut down her carefully cultivated peach orchard to defend her faith, she replied in the affirmative, ‘And would sit up nights to do it.’

HistoryNet » Utah War: U.S. Government Versus Mormon Settlers

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by john doe

Fiannan, you know by now that polygamy is not the issue. I know you keep trying to make it the issue, by it isn't.

Better tell that to the Washington Post as well as the Peoples Republic of Texas:

An Unusual Prosecution of a Way of Life

Texas Will Attempt to Show That Polygamist Culture Itself Harms Children

ELDORADO, Tex. -- The ironic thing is that before the big sheriff's department armored personnel carrier appeared outside the Yearning for Zion Ranch, it was starting to seem as though America had finally figured out how to live with its polygamists.
For more than a century, authorities had alternately persecuted and ignored the groups practicing plural marriage around the West -- splinters from mainstream Mormonism, splinters of splinters. Mostly, they ignored them.
But, in the past few years, officials in some states have begun trying to bring these groups out of the shadows. They offered a deal: Marry however often you want, but don't marry children. A Supreme Court case on gay sex also provided unlikely help.
Then came Eldorado.
On April 3, Texas authorities raided the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' compound here, then removed more than 450 children. Now, Texas seems headed for exactly the kind of wrenching, head-on fight that other states have tried to avoid.
Their case will ask: Does this polygamous group deserve a place -- and the right to raise children -- in modern society?

washingtonpost.com

[WillowTheWhisp]

Thanks for that link. It has given me a new perspective on the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

[john doe]

For more than a century, authorities had alternately persecuted and ignored the groups practicing plural marriage around the West -- splinters from mainstream Mormonism, splinters of splinters. Mostly, they ignored them.
But, in the past few years, officials in some states have begun trying to bring these groups out of the shadows. They offered a deal: Marry however often you want, but don't marry children.

Seems to me, this part of your post is the crux of the matter. If they hadn't been having sex with children, there would have been no incursion on the 'ranch'.

If they were just a bunch of adults who decided to shack up together and have sex with whoever they felt spiritually married to, it wouldn't be a big deal. Adults shack up all the time. It may be immoral, but not necessarily illegal.

But when you start to give and take children in marraige, and then teach those children that they are expected to be married to their uncle, or cousin, or whoever when they turn 13 or 14, then it does become a problem. We all know that you think that polygamy is a good thing, Fiannan, and in some instances, it can be, but the brand that the FLDS are practicing is not good. It is a perversion of God's ways and will, and disgusting.

Do I agree with all the things the Texans have done in this case? No. I thought the way they took the children was the wrong way to do it. I would have done it a different way. I'm not so sure that splitting up and sending all of those kids out to foster homes was such a good idea either. I think it shows a lack of respect and understanding of the situation. Many things in the situation could and should have been done differently. But to ignore that fact that many of these children were being sexually abused in an ongoing manner is wrong as well. The practices had to be stopped, and stopped immediately.

The problem, is the FLDS have become a closed society. It is difficult, if not impossible, to get these people, especially the children, to tell authorities just exactly what is going on in that society. The texans have had little to go on other than physical evidence, like pregnant young girls who obviously are not adults. They have been conditioned to not open up to strangers, and I would not be surprised if they are uncooperative with anyone outside their society.

I think that is why Texas decided to split them up, to see if they can get some of the children to talk to someone outside their society, and get evidence against the leaders of their abusive cult. I don't know if that tactic will work, but it looks to me like that is what they are doing. Time will tell if Texas will win this one, but I am afraid they have made too many missteps even though they were well-intentioned and for a good cause.

[Fiannan]

The kids are the victims here - not of the parents, but of the incredible, unbelievable cruelty of the state of Texas authorities. If there is evidence of cruelty by the families to these kids, where is it?

Look, I am a huge fan of Texas. I have many friends there and love being there. But what is the attorney general of Texas doing? This is an Orwellian nightmare. For no reason except what looks like a crank call, the lives of these children have been turned upside down and into a screaming horror movie.

Can't someone say the obvious here? That in this case, it's not the Mormons who are the criminals, it's the government of Texas.

Governor Perry, wake up and give those kids back to their mothers until you have some compelling, proven reason to do otherwise. What your state is doing here is Gestapo tactics pure and simple.

What Did The FLDS Kids Do To Deserve This?, Ben Stein Says Texas Authorities Are Acting Like The Gestapo By Taking Away The Children Of A Mormon Sect - CBS News

A bit about Mr. Stein:

Ben Stein

[WillowTheWhisp]

Two of the children have apparently gone missing! I cannot imagine what the mothers of those two must be going through, unless of course they have not been informed.

It seems that rumours are still flourishing about this so-called marriage consumation bed in the temple.

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

Two of the children have apparently gone missing! I cannot imagine what the mothers of those two must be going through, unless of course they have not been informed.

It seems that rumours are still flourishing about this so-called marriage consumation bed in the temple.

It's going to get worse before it gets better for the People's Republic of Texas. If any of these kids are hurt in any way the lawyers will go for the jugular for civil damages. Even if it could be proven that some óf the allegations were true this sort of collectivized attack disregards constitutional law so much that in the end I suspect the FLDS will come out way ahead.

The kids on the other hand, even if given back to their rightful parents, will be severely traumatized. Many will likely hold a strong hatred of the government -- wonder what seeds the Gestapo in Texas have planted.