Free Innocent FLDS Children Now!

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by rosie321

Originally Posted by rosie321
So as long as someone feels a crime is being committed its ok to take away someone elses rights? I can't disagree more with that sentiment more.

Are you saying there were no warrants issued--that a judge was not convinced that there was enough evidence to justify the intervention?

Lets apply your thinking towards gay rights. Many legislations have been created with the intent to protect this population and give them the right to live life free from persecution. However, some of these laws can and have been used at times to go after people who merely disagree with the lifestyle and who feel that it goes against God's will.

Some gay rights activists have argued that it is child abuse to promote anti-gay ideas for young children. In fact California schools have already adopted many such ideas into their programs. Anything that discourages or looks down on the lifestyle is wrong

How would you feel if someone came and took your children because you could not agree with this lifestyle?

A judge issued a warrant, meaning s/he was convinced there was enough evidence of child abuse to justify removal and investigation. And, again, the crime here is illegal polygamous and pedaphilic marriages of 13 year old girls to 50 year old men!

You oppose the state CPS intervention because you fear that someday government may declare it illegal to teach that homosexuality is a spiritual sin, and may remove children from religious households that teach such??? I would suggest to you that God is not the author of fear, and that these young girls needed immediate help. God uses Caesar for just this type of purpose.

Concerning free speech, your concern is good reason for Christians to remain active, offering "salt and light" while the day remains.

Polygamy has existed throughout history. As it has been pointed out it is only recently in this country history that it has become popular for children to be older when they marry and have children. History is full of examples of young people marrying and having children. Arranged marriages are still a part of other cultures. Should this group be penalized because they cling to traditions and past cultural norms?

This group is not from the Middle East, and they do not live in an agrarian age, in which most are barely literate. Even then, marriages were between adolescents, not arrangements created under religious guise, so that 50 year old men could have their way with numerous young teenage girls. Polygamous marriages are illegal, and in this country, the men engaged in statutory rape.

Some might say the same for christians who disprove of the gay lifestyle. Should everyone who disagrees with the gay movement and does not feel that it is right in the sight of the Lord have their children rounded up?

It's okay to teach your children that polygamy is God's will, and that teenage girls should form harems for 50-year old spiritual patriarchs. But, when you actually bring these teachings into action, you engage in illegal marriages, statutory rape, and you are labeled a pedaphile.

[rosie321]

Are you saying there were no warrants issued--that a judge was not convinced that there was enough evidence to justify the intervention?

First wasn't the warrant originally based on the evidence of a hoax call? Secondly isn't everyone innocent until proven guilty in this country? These people have yet to be fully tried in court by a jury of their peers. 3rd I'm more than certain 350 lawyers beg to differ with the body of evidence gathered and could better argue the validity of the evidence.

You oppose the state CPS intervention because you fear that someday government may declare it illegal to teach that homosexuality is a spiritual sin, and may remove children from religious households that teach such??? I would suggest to you that God is not the author of fear, and that these young girls needed immediate help. God uses Caesar for just this type of purpose

I was merely pointing out the similarity between the two scenarios and trying to explain why this should be of concern. Everyone has their ideas concerning whether or not the crime was commited on part of the people in the compound.

I agree we should not live in fear but on the other hand should recognize the danger of power left unchecked especially on the side of the "righteous". We need to use this knowledge to increase our diligence. Believers are not expected to be free from persecution but are expected to stand up for the things that are right. I percieve just as much of a danger from the state if not more than from these people. These people may be guilty of crimes or maybe the crime is the way in which their culture is percieved. Are they using young girls to satisfy pleasure or are they simply living out what they believe to be right? It seems like more effort is being put into going after this group then after those who clearly seek to harm children.

The government has more power to do harm in this case then a group that has secluded itself from others.

Will the way the government acted help or hurt these kids in the long run? I have concerns about the damage their "help" may have created.

God used Ceasar for his purpose. The end result is written in history books.

[kona0197]

Some gay rights activists have argued that it is child abuse to promote anti-gay ideas for young children. In fact California schools have already adopted many such ideas into their programs. Anything that discourages or looks down on the lifestyle is wrong

It IS child abuse. Homosexuality is wrong in any form.

Lets take polygamy out of this and look at just the fact that there are children who are pregnant at ages below the age of legal consent. There are young women with 3 ,4, or 5, year old children at the age of 18 which clearly puts them at giving birth below the age of consent. This is clearly illegal according to the laws in Texas. The men who impregnated these girls are by definition guilty of statutory rape because they are having sex with underage girls. If the state had not taken action after that call then they would have failed in their duty to protect the children. It doesnt matter if the call was found to be a hoax because once a call is made law enforcement has an obligation to follow up. Had they gone out there and not found any evidence of sex with underage girls then I doubt we would have heard about any of this. Chances are it would have been dropped due to the call being a hoax. I cannot understand why some people can only see persecution of the FLDS and not an effort to stop sex with underage girls.

[jjrogers]

Part of the reason the children have been taken from the Mother's is that the Mother's Keep Lying. They can't even get a straight answer from the women as to whose children are theirs. Second point is these people are using welfare. No offence, but you can't use welfare and then claim it is non of the governments business if you are breaking the law concerning your children.
I think the DNA tests are a great answer, especially because if I was a FLDS person that had my children taken away from me by the church because I wasn't righteous enough at least I could now go to the state and get my children back.
Where are all the men? Why aren't they fighting for their children? Why aren't they showing up at court? If the state took our children, believe me my husband would be right there with me fighting.

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

What is this rampant desire to defend the Jeff's Cult and malign the State of Texas?

Any right minded Latter Day Saint ought to be thankful that the State of Texas did something that clearly the States of Utah and Arizona never had the cojones to do.

So what are you implying about the states of Arizona and Utah here?

Also, again, your logic implies that the blatent use of power (if for an alleged good benefit) means you should just ignore fairness, logic and even constitutional principles. You know, I just returned from Tibet/China -- a lot of people there have the same attitude towards the use of power.

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

You're just wrong. Whether or not a crime has been committed is absolutely the issue here. If it is true that this ranch was set up under the guise of a church, to systematically provide 13-14 year old "brides" to 50 year old pedaphiles, then CPS were heroes to intervene.

So the FLDS Church was established for this sole purpose? Also, psychologically speaking, a man who has attraction to a pre-pubescent girl is a pedophile. Now if a man marries a 14 year old that may be against the law but in times past people did marry at that age. Mary was 14 when she conceived Jesus -- what does that say? Mohammed married a 9 year old -- was he a pedophile (from my understanding he did not have sex with her until she reached puberty)?

Because they were being groomed for pedaphilic "marriages" with 50 year old men...illegal, polygamous marriages, perhaps???

Is 50 the magic age there? Also, would you oppose returning the children to their parents if a deal could be struck with the leaders of the FLDS Church that they would not marry anyone until the age of consent?

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by kona0197

It IS child abuse. Homosexuality is wrong in any form.

Any lesbian couple in the USA who are mentally stable and of reproductive age can walk into a sperm band tomorrow and get impregnated -- and the state won't take their kids.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by kona0197

It IS child abuse. Homosexuality is wrong in any form.

Ignorance is wrong in any form.

The following is an interview Elder Oaks And Elder Whickham, a seventy, gave to Church's official "Newsroom" site.

LDS Newsroom - Same-Gender Attraction

From the interview:

Elder Oaks:

The distinction between feelings or inclinations on the one hand, and behavior on the other hand, is very clear. It’s no sin to have inclinations that if yielded to would produce behavior that would be a transgression. The sin is in yielding to temptation. Temptation is not unique. Even the Savior was tempted.


Elder Wickham:

I think I would say to your son [who came to his father for help about his homosexuality] or anyone that was so afflicted to strive to expand your horizons beyond simply gender orientation. Find fulfillment in the many other facets of your character and your personality and your nature that extend beyond that. There’s no denial that one’s gender orientation is certainly a core characteristic of any person, but it’s not the only one.

What’s more, merely having inclinations does not disqualify one for any aspect of Church participation or membership, except possibly marriage as has already been talked about. But even that, in the fullness of life as we understand it through the doctrines of the restored gospel, eventually can become possible.

In this life, such things as service in the Church, including missionary service, all of this is available to anyone who is true to covenants and commandments.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Church does not condemn homosexuality. It condemns the sin of breaking the law of chastity, just like it does for hetersexuals.

Your comments about homosexuality are not only hurtful to your fellow homosexual members, they are wrong. Please reader Elder Oaks' interview. You need it.

Elphaba

Edited to add: It appears, from reading another post, that you are not LDS. If this is correct, then I realize the information provided above will not influence you. So please take from it what you will.

This does not detract from the fact that homosexuality is simply a sexual orientation. It is no more wrong than your heterosexuality.

Elphaba

[Fiannan]

Missionary effort hurt by the whole controversy surrounding the raid on the FLDS:

Deseret News | Texas LDS deal with confusion

Just wonder how many more members we would have today if the morons ín Utah who went after Tom Green in 2001 had minded their own business? Wonder how many we will lose (potential members) due to Texas going after the FLDS in a manner that would embarass the leaders in the Chinese Communist Party?