Free Innocent FLDS Children Now!

[Gwen]

yes this brings up questions. but i'm not sure it "costs" us members. i've had several discussions already where ppl have come to me wanting to know what's going on. gives me a great opportunity to share what makes me different from these monsters. at the same time i get to share what makes me more similar to them (the ones asking questions not the flds) what makes us christian. they come to me with the questions, i don't have to go out preaching. i don't mind that at all. the ones that come to me are more receptive anyway.

there will be some that will refuse to hear the differences, i find those don't tend to go out seeking answers though, they are to busy enjoying the sound of their own voice. those ppl would have never come into the chruch anyway, so no loss there.

[rosie321]

Missionary effort hurt by the whole controversy surrounding the raid on the FLDS:

Deseret News | Texas LDS deal with confusion

Just wonder how many more members we would have today if the morons ín Utah who went after Tom Green in 2001 had minded their own business? Wonder how many we will lose (potential members) due to Texas going after the FLDS in a manner that would embarass the leaders in the Chinese Communist Party?

I can't help but wonder a little if the confusion is being purposefully created and perpetuated.
Considering politics for a minute, the timing seems all too perfect. But then again maybe others here are right, maybe I'm just a conspiracy theorist promoting child abuse.

Let me make a few things clear. First, though I brought up the same-gender issues above it was only to discuss possible similarities in the issues and to bring up something that many people can understand and have definite bias on. I did not mean to change the topic to a gender based discussion. I believe the same regarding the church's stance on same gender attraction. I do not harbor hatred towards those in this category although I do believe inside that acting upon these desires will not bring happiness. Therefore I do not feel it right to promote this as a good alternative lifestyle since I fear it will cause heartache to those who actively live and promote it. I don't want others to persecute me for believing this is wrong. I can't help but wonder what I'd do if people said that my beliefs were outdated and wrong. That I was creating hateful children and brainwashing them into religions of hate or something like that. Sound unbelieveable, right? It is already happening to some degree now. This is an issue where the tables are legally turning and that idea could potentially be coming down the path. Look at legislations and rulings. Saying you disagree can cost one dearly. Is a similar case happening for these polygamists? What is behind what they do? Do we have the right to tell them they are wrong? (They have not been out hunting people down to tell them they are wrong) Are they just pedophiles or are they people acting out what they believe based on traditions? Who are we to judge and tell them they can believe as they may? Many great men of faith had to buck the legal system to stay faithful to the principals they believed to be true.

Another point I want to make very clear. I do not like to see children harmed. If these men are abusing children and found guilty as any other person then I have no problem with them facing the consequences of their actions. As in any other case I would like the intent to be considered. Are they really just sick perverts or people living out their faith? There are other situations much more clear cut abuse. Maybe I'm totally naive but I don't believe these people think of ways to abuse or control their kids. There are people out there who don't care at all about their kids. I really don't believe that this is the case here at all. This is a close knit community even if they are eccentric and "authoritarian".

I strongly believe that these children have been done more harm through having to go through the system then they ever would have faced on the compound. These children have been thrust into an unfamiliar world. They have seen their family torn apart. There are not many options for them right now. Just uncertainty, loss and pain. After all this they will probably wind back up in the "abusive" environment after being abused by the system. Pathologies that already exist in that environment will only be compounded by what has happened. I've seen similar happen on a smaller scale.

As far as why the parents might not step forward, everyone appears to be against them. Their rights seem violated. Listen to some of the transcripts of what the people are saying. I can understand reasons why the parents would be reacting the way they are. The mothers have responsibility for the children in that environment so I can see why they would be the ones pushing for the childrens return. Besides which the men are only a bunch of pedophiles-right?

Despite all the anger and pain they have allowed people in and given tours.

As far as the welfare issue. Are they really recieving welfare for the children? Don't others receive it too? Who approved it? If they are recieving welfare than shouldn't the paperwork/ child information already be available at government offices? Why are we going through all the dna testing? I completely agree with the sentiment that they should make every effort to be self reliant and support themself.

[Fiannan]

yes this brings up questions. but i'm not sure it "costs" us members. i've had several discussions already where ppl have come to me wanting to know what's going on. gives me a great opportunity to share what makes me different from these monsters. at the same time i get to share what makes me more similar to them (the ones asking questions not the flds) what makes us christian.

"Monsters" ?

Wow, the term monster...not sure I have come across that one in the Bible to make distinctions between the "good people" and the bad.

And are you saying that the FLDS are not Christian? By what criteria?

Again, I think Governor Boggs is laughing his skull off in his grave over these reports. Mormons should be the last ones attacking people who believe differntly, especially since they are our spiritual cousins.

I have a challenge here for anyone who believes these people deserve what they are getting while the LDS did not deserve persecution in the 19th. Century. Go over to freerepublic.com, and in the serach engine type in "Mormon" or "LDS" or "FLDS". See what many fundamentalists think about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or any aspect of our Church. And if you think only conservatives have issues with us then go over to democraticunderground.com and see how the left feels about us.

[Bethie]

from my blog, "Day of Praise"

In an article by the "Deseret Morning News" in Salt Lake City, I was very surprised and saddened to read the following quote:

"Charles L. Webb, LDS stake President in Abilene, Texas, said he has discouraged Church members from helping out in the name of the LDS Church to avoid confusion between the two faiths, but said they should offer their services as individuals."

Yet, we share the same scriptures:

"San Angelo 2nd Ward Bishop Jeffrey Bushman was contacted by a chaplain helping the FLDS women when they were being housed at Fort Concho. The women had requested copies of the Book of Mormon.

He sent them some copies."
****************************

It's ironic, but I believe the little FLDS children are truly more free than their captors, the Texas CPS. These innocent children have a strong faith and hope in Jesus Christ, while the Texas "do-gooders" only seem to have faith in their own regulations and governmental socialism.

"Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand?"~Jesus Christ
(Doctrine and Covenants 38:22) Revelation given through Joseph Smith, the Prophet at Fayette, New York, January 2, 1831.

Related articles:
NBC News Story About Petition
Petition Organizer
Free the Children.org

[Gwen]

matt. 18:6.....mark 9:42......luke 17:2......d&c 121:22............i never claimed the lord used the word monster. how many times does the lord have to say that what is happening there is an abomination? this isn't about plural marriage or the "beginnings" of their chruch having connected roots to ours, it's not about having different beliefs; it's about sexual abuse to children. what they are today is in no way similar to who we are. their doctrines are in no way christain (as governed by their actions; by their fruits you shall know them) or condoned by god in any way. this is about child abuse, plain and simple. continue to defend or draw parallels if it makes you feel better, changes nothing.

[User-Removed]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

Missionary effort hurt by the whole controversy surrounding the raid on the FLDS:

Just wonder how many more members we would have today if the morons ín Utah who went after Tom Green in 2001 had minded their own business? Wonder how many we will lose (potential members) due to Texas going after the FLDS in a manner that would embarass the leaders in the Chinese Communist Party?

Fiannan...out of curiousity here, how long have you been LDS?

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

So the FLDS Church was established for this sole purpose?

The State is not interested in discerning the theology behind the systematic statutory rape of 13 year old girls by 50 year old men. God reads the hearts of people.

Also, psychologically speaking, a man who has attraction to a pre-pubescent girl is a pedophile. Now if a man marries a 14 year old that may be against the law

Okay...we'll split the difference and call them statutory rapists. That's a tad less inflammatory then pedaphile, I suppose.

Is 50 the magic age there? Also, would you oppose returning the children to their parents if a deal could be struck with the leaders of the FLDS Church that they would not marry anyone until the age of consent?

Not if there are convictions. Rosie says they are innocent until proven guilty. Of course, that does not always mean that parents and children get to stay together, anymore than it means that those in pretrial status automatically get released on their own merits (yeah...I happen to work in a jail).

[rosie321]

I don't think any one that has posted here wants to see people abused.

The majority of people on these boards feel the people in the compound are wrong and the FLDS are tried and convicted without a trial of pedophilia, statuatory rape etc. While I can understand this tendancy on the part of those outside of the LDS faith I don't understand it in the LDS church. I am very wary of jumping on this bandwagon and urge caution to others when doing so.

This lifestyle is not wrong to them in fact they are still following the founder of the restored faith who had revelation from God regarding it. Whether they are right or worng in this belief is a matter of debate.

This behavior has happened in the past and was not a sin. These people still live out of that time period when it was ok to marry multiple wives and they were young. The media and the professionals mock this group at every turn because of their backward ways. They dress as people did over 100 years ago. Due to the way these people live and their actions as described by the professionals, I have a hard time believing from the way they act and live that the majority in the compound believe anything other than that they are following God's will and conforming their lives to it.. There is nothing to suggest that these men are marrying young women because they are pedaphiles or predators or what ever other term we want to slap onto this group of people. Behaving or acting differently does not.place these people in the same category as those who set out to harm children or neglect them. There are so many
more clearcut cases of abuse that are never addressed.

It seems that LDS want to clearly seperate themselves from this group. While we are different, we will always be tied to this group. Both have polygamy and the origins of the restored church as part of the common history. There is no point in trying to hide from this. We can try and seperate ourselves We can rest on our beliefs that the LDS chuch is true as led under the direction of President Monson and that polygamy is not practiced right now. That we have the greater knowledge and are acting on it. BTW Do you have any idea how ridicuous this sounds to non-members? This is what keeps anti mormons going. It keeps a lot of people from wanting to learn more. It sounds like we are hiding and covering up things.

Each one of us has to come to grips that many of our forefathers participated in such evil acts too. Most of these people in this group believe what Joseph Smith himself advocated and practiced. Plural marriage. Was there ever an age stipulation placed upon it anywhere in scriptural history? I don't recall seeing it anywhere in scriptures.

Read the turmoil Emma had over this matter during the time. It was a hard concept for her to take in. She did not like the whole idea thus the D&C revelation. Also important to note the Lord saw fit to bless these men despite their marrying more than one young girl..

We are called to respect another mans beliefs. When is it ok for us to disregard our own article of faith concerning this? LDS were persecuted heavily in the early church and feel that it was unjustified to this day. The persecutions of the early days are still rejected and wept over. Enemies still reviled.

I don't understand the point where we are at now. Shouldn't we weep and pray for those on the compound. Instead of going in and showing love to these people we have seemingly joined the mobs against them calling for their downfall. Justice is one thing. This seems much more like a witchhunt.

Christ wept for people that He saw were seeking to follow the paths of righteousness. Christ looked at the heart had compassion for people He saw in such circumstances. Yet it seems we want to draw the sword out on these people for living out what they believe to be right? There appears to be a double standard. Before we condemn these people lets stop for a minute and ask why are they doing what they are doing?

Also be honest with yourself for a moment. What do you think is needed in this situation? What is really the best thing to do to help these people? If you are under the belief that these people are the worst hardened criminals and the government is just helping the children. Ask yourself, what is the government REALLY doing to help, protect and punish these people? What do you think the fallout is going to be from the government action?

Members should be praying for the Lord's hand in this matter. That the innocent are cared for and that perpetrators learn another way.

Fiannian is right Governor Boggs is probably rolling over in his grave laughing at us now.

Why do we feel it ok to emphasize the evil in this group in order to seperate ourselves for it?

LDS do need to be aware of how they are being percieved by those outside the church. The world does not comprehend the difference between us and the FLDS. We both have polygamy and other unfamiliar acts in our history. They are frightened to be around us. To many outside the church we are the same and should all have millstones hung around our necks.

Please beware of what swords you use against another.
Remember righteous swords are two edged.

Perhaps this is all being done to lay the groundwork for the reinstitution of polygamy?

[Gwen]

i have empathy for and concern for those that are victims in this situation. i do ask that the lord's justice be swift for those that are the perpitrators. if these ppl truely think they are following god's will (and yes i believe some of them truely believe that) that is fine, but they must accept they are still subject to man's law. they have broken the law.

just as daniel made a choice to pray when it was against the law he suffered the consequences to his actions. he was willing to accept the consequences and let god save him if that be god's will. there are times when god let's the righteous suffer the fate man puts on them. if they are that convinced that they are right and we are all the ones going to hell fine, let them face the fate of man and god will deal with them as he see's fit.

i've in no way advocated any kind of persecution or mob mentality to harm or descrimination against anyone. i do seek consequences to actions. i recall it being said once that mercy without justice is far worse than justice without mercy. i think our society is heading that direction and will be to our distruction. i think the law should be followed to prosecute this crime and it should be used to the fullest extent without fear or hesitation. if those "fulfilling" the law are breaking the law to do it they too should be prosecuted for their crimes.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

It's okay to teach your children that polygamy is God's will, and that teenage girls should form harems for 50-year old spiritual patriarchs. But, when you actually bring these teachings into action, you engage in illegal marriages, statutory rape, and you are labeled a pedaphile.

Good point, however I also suspect there is harm being done in the teaching, that helps perpetuate this abusive situation.

Regarding rights being trampeled, I would counter that the inherent right of these Potentates to maintain their preditory harems, would be a legitimatized only by virtue of admitting there is a right of these minors to be abused.