Free Innocent FLDS Children Now!

[JustMiss]

I think this is an extremely sad situation. I feel really bad for the children. As with everything the ones that end up hurt the worst are the children. I wouldn't sign a petition to send the kids back. I think Texas did what needed to be done. This children are confused and scared. They have been raised in the confines of the compound. They are taught that outsiders are evil and then outsiders come in and take them away. They are afraid to talk to a lot of the people trying to help them. Authorities are havng a hard time even figuring out which children go with which parent because they won't talk. It's sad. I don't feel that the children should be returned. Not when it's the practice to have the girls spiritually married at such a young age. That is abuse. Plain and simple and should not be tolerated at all. I keep hearin in the news how these moms are so upset that their kids are gone. And being a mom I can get a glimpse of how awful it would be not to have my children here with me. To not hear their voices playing. The house would feel so empty. However if I was going to have one of my girls become spiritually married at 14, then I would hope that the authorities would come. As a mom I would not want my daughter to become a wife to some older man. I couldn't allow it. But in all honesty where did the practice start? With the very first prophet when he gave a revelation that an angel with a sword came to him and said that if he didn't enter into the practice then he would be destroyed. Joseph Smith Jr and his 33 wives. Some of his wives teenagers. Some as young as 14 and 15. This angers me that now young girls are still being put through the same thing that Joseph Smith Jr started. I just pulled up on the lds website under family search joseph smith jr and it listed all his wives and the dates they were born and the dates they were married to him as well as other men. Yes I know everyone well get all defensive and say..."oh but the lds don't practice polygamy anymore".... true they don't. Thank God. But the history is there and cant be denied. The church leaders married more then one woman and married each others wives. FamilySearch.org - Search
It's all there. I was taught in church that polygamy was needed because there were not enough men for all the women so men would take up more then one wife and support them. That's not what happened. I think to blame joseph smith whole heartedly for what is going on in texas might not be right, but if he didn't start it and say it was a must for exaltation I wonder if it would still being happening in the splinter groups. I find it disgusting. So signing a petition to free the children. No I won't. They probably are in better hands now. But I will continue to pray for them, that the Lord covers them in safety and love and helps heal their wounds like only he can do.

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

Fiannan...out of curiousity here, how long have you been LDS?

Hey, since Jimmy Carter was presdient. You aren't trying an ad hominum thing here, are you...you know, if the message cannot be dealt with then try to question the opponent in the debate?

[Fiannan]

The State is not interested in discerning the theology behind the systematic statutory rape of 13 year old girls by 50 year old men. God reads the hearts of people.

Former Israeli president Golda Meir was once asked if the rape rate could be reduced in Israel if women were required to not venture out at night alone. Her response was that if men were doing the rapes then why should the women be the ones not allowed to go out at night? Same here, if your 50 year old guy (who is he and is 50 the age men get married in the FLDS?) is the one in question then he should be the one being fed by the Texas Stormtroopers, not over 400 children.

Okay...we'll split the difference and call them statutory rapists. That's a tad less inflammatory then pedaphile, I suppose.

That's okay, statuatory rape is a legal term and means different things in different societies. In Mexico City the age of consent is 12 and the legal marriage age is 14. In many Muslim nations a man can marry a 9 year old since Mohammed married a 9 year old. Incidentely, you have not answered my question about Mohammed. Was he a perv?

Not if there are convictions. Rosie says they are innocent until proven guilty. Of course, that does not always mean that parents and children get to stay together, anymore than it means that those in pretrial status automatically get released on their own merits (yeah...I happen to work in a jail).

For someone who knows a lot about the dangers of state power and religious liberty I am surprised you are not sounding the alarm over this one. Come on, here we have the state treating these women as if they were mindless sheep and justifying a communal approach to state power rather than an individual approach that is mandated by the US Constitution. I happen to feel that this is a dangerous path to choose.

[Fiannan]

I think the state may be having trouble with their case -- CNN, while pointing out the call that started all this mess may have been a hoax and may have originated from a black woman in Colorado, has thrown out the race card to discredit Jeff's. The story noted the irony if a black person caused all this since Jeff's allegedly has negative attitudes towards blacks.

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by Gwen

matt. 18:6.....mark 9:42......luke 17:2......d&c 121:22............i never claimed the lord used the word monster. how many times does the lord have to say that what is happening there is an abomination? this isn't about plural marriage or the "beginnings" of their chruch having connected roots to ours, it's not about having different beliefs; it's about sexual abuse to children. what they are today is in no way similar to who we are. their doctrines are in no way christain (as governed by their actions; by their fruits you shall know them) or condoned by god in any way. this is about child abuse, plain and simple. continue to defend or draw parallels if it makes you feel better, changes nothing.

No, you used the word monster -- I wanted it noted that the scriptures do not contain this form of reference towards anyone. Yes, the word "infidel" is used but not monster.

Also, has the Lord himself come into this debate? Can't wait to see him forced to testify in Texas court.

Mary was 14 when she conceived Jesus -- kinda makes you think, doesn't it?

[WillowTheWhisp]

May I ask what the age of consent was in Texas when the FLDS decided to settle there? I have been told that it was 14 and that they chose to move to Texas for that very reason, then Texas changed the law.

That kinda makes me think. At one time a 14 year old girl getting married in Texas was perfectly acceptable, now her husband is a paedophile? What changed? The husband? The girl?

[Fiannan]

Some as young as 14 and 15. This angers me that now young girls are still being put through the same thing that Joseph Smith Jr started.

Actually, Joseph Smith did not start this sort of thing as it has been going on since the days of Adam. Mohammed took many wives and one was only 9, although he did not have sex with her until she reached puberty. The ages of the women in the Bible are generally unlcear but we can assume most were married around the age of 14 through 16. In traditional areas of the Middle East today it is still common to get married that young and often you get married to your cousin who is chosen through negotiations between the parents. As for marriage in small communities like the FLDS, it might be noted that MesoAmerican cultures usually had people marry close relatives to maintain racial purity and since Alma makes a big deal about being a descendant of Lehi, why make such a claim if all Nephites and Lamanites were from Lehi, we can probably assume the Nephites tried to keep the ruling classes racially pure through this practice just like the Incans and the Egyptians did.

If we go by Jewish folklore, Adam had many wives so polygamy it seems is the rule rather than the exception in human history.

Cut Joseph Smith some slack here. If anything he was living the same way the ancient prophets lives and unless people want to follow in the path of Sonia Johnson they should not be so critical of what they were doing.

[StrawberryFields]

I just came across this site with pictures of the raid etc. I thought it might be interesting for you.

Captive FLDS Children

[WillowTheWhisp]

Thank you for that Strawberry Fields. I had really no idea how terrifying it must have been for them until I saw those photographs. I can't imagine what those children must be going through having been forcefully removed from their homes by armed soldiers. I had no idea that 'the sheriff' meant an armoured tank! As an adult I would have been petrified if they had burst into my home. I wonder who pays for all the damage? And I can't help wondering why there had to be damage if they were supposedly peacefully removed. It looks like a war zone. I may not agree with the FLDS way of life but I certainly don't feel able to agree with what has happened here.

[WillowTheWhisp]

The more I read about this the sadder I become. I was initially drawn to this article because of the suggestion that LDS representatives could supervise the FLDS prayer meetings.

But then as I read on through the story I read that they have had their phones confiscated and are no longer able to contact their attorneys. The authorities are trying to separate breastfeeding mothers from their babies.

The women face a deadline of when the DNA samples are collected and the children are placed in foster care. They will likely be separated.

They are going to be separated even if no abuse has taken place? It sounds like child abuse is taking place right now and it's the state of Texas which is guilty of it. I never had much time for the FLDS before all this due to their stance on polygamy but my heart is softened towards them now.

Here in this country (and I don't doubt the same occurs in the US) there are children who are neglected, malnourished, beaten and tortured who are left with their parents, sometimes with the eventual tragedy of their deaths. Here we seem to have happy children, clean well fed and cared for whose only 'crime' is that their fathers may have more than one wife. It hasn't even been proved that their mothers are under the legal age and yet these innocent children are the ones who are suffering.