The drugs debate

[Bookmeister]

Okay, thanks...now I can never eat Cheetos again...

Originally Posted by fent

Fat produces estrogen, in both men and women.
More fat = more estrogen.
More estrogen = more moobs

=

[Iggy]

First of all if I could give more than one Thanks, I would give you about a dozen Skalenfehl. That is how much I agree with you.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

<<snip>> There are countless meth labs in the country where something goes wrong and in an explosion takes out the criminal along with the neighboring family, who is barbecuing next door.

When my husband bought the house and property we now live in there were no meth houses or drug dealers in this neighborhood. The drug dealers are illegal Mexicans- direct from Mexico. They are the worst kind of human being there is. They care not a whit for any human, much less their own people. In the last two years three meth kitchens have blown up and burned down the buildings they were housed in. Fortunately these were abandoned buildings and if anyone was hurt, it would have been one of the illegals minding the kitchen.

For the few of us who are NOT druggies, we were not harmed by the fires. The family on the south side of us are harmed by the fumes. Their next to the youngest child nearly died from the fumes. This child was born with underdeveloped lungs, and was on a respirator for the first year of her life. Add the fumes from these meth kitchens and she can only play outside with a special gas mask on. Not fun for a 4 year old, but she wears it and seems to enjoy herself. Our homes are not close to each other either. There is nearly 3 acres between us and the family. Perhaps 2 acres between the family and the last meth kitchen that blew up.

Yes, the local police, boarder patrol, vice, yada, yada, yada know all about the druggies, cooks, crooks, illegals, yada, yada, yada. They want to get the BIG GUYS. The brains behind these piddly little crooks. I disagree with this. Get the little guys, put them out of business for good, don't ship them back to Mexico because Mexico will just turn them loose and they will come back. Ship them off to the Tent City Prison that we have here, and make them earn their keep.

We never go outside because we don't know when a gun war will take place. In about two to three years this area will be commercially developed by the city that boarders it. When it is, we will sell our 1 1/2 acres of prime commercial property and get the heck out of Dodge and head West! Way West, back to Oregon!

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

What beneficial uses does crystal meth have? Cocaine? PCP? etc? If someone wants to do drugs, they cannot intelligently believe that doing drugs does not have an effect on someone else because it does. They perpetuate the supply and demand which trickles down to the average innocent child because the hardened drug dealers do not care who ends up with drugs. Their only concern is the profit that it brings.

My husbands youngest brother is a meth addict. As is his wife and two of his youngest children. He taught them how to make it, use it and sell it. His wife, who is their stepmother pimped the girls out when they were 9 and 10 years old. The older girl fought the stepmother for several years, it was her father that eventually pimped her out at the ripe old age of 13.

When the family discovered this, we went to the authorities and they would do nothing about it. Children's Services claimed that we had no proof of the children being prostituted out, or of their drug use or selling. They didn't listen to the girls school mates who claimed to have purchased drugs from my nieces. Nor did they do any random drug testing, or take them to the Dr. We couldn't do it legally, because we are not the parents.

The Dr wanted to help, but his hands were tied - legally to. So were the hands of the Church.

The girls are now 20, 18, and 17. The 18 year old is off the street and living with her pimp. The other two are still with their Dad. He has been in and out of the Hospital three times in four years. Heart attacks caused by extensive use of Meth. His innards are mostly mush. Each time, the Dr's say they don't know why he is still living- he hasn't next to no internal organs left.

This creature is 51 years old and looks like he is in his mid 90's. He has ruined the lives of all of his children- he has six daughters from two marriages and a stepson. Only two wives out of four have gotten out of the drug scene and made something of themselves. Yes, he introduced them all to drugs. He started using drugs when he was 12 years old. His parents were divorced, his father was an alcoholic and his mother buried herself in her career and not in her home/mothering duties.

He also ruined the life of one of his nephews. Introducing him to crack and having him sell it for him. That young man died at the age of 22 due to the drugs he was using.

He also did another most horrendous thing. He emptied his mothers checking/savings account. Stole her SS# and sold it several times, sold her Identity. Opened credit cards in her name, maxed them out and left her with the bills. She nearly lost her home of 25 years because of this. He, his wife, three daughters and stepson lived with her for six years. They never paid for anything, never cleaned, cooked. All they did was take, take, abuse and neglect. Mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's in 1998. When husband and I got married and I met her, we finally took her out of her own home and sent her off to live with middle son and his wife. That was in 2005. She passed Feb 2008. When we took her from her home, I took her to the Dr. She had scabies, head lice, body lice (didn't know there was more than one kind of lice- what a shock!) she was malnourished, her feet were curling under because her toenails were 1 to 2 inches long and she couldn't walk or wear shoes properly. She was living on dry cat food. Youngest son told her is was Fruit Loops. He thought it was funny! I am ashamed (sort of ) to say that when he laughingly told us this, I back handed him so hard he fell on his backside, and the last tooth he had in his mouth, cut his lip. Yes I went to the Dr and got a tetanus shot- that tooth also cut my hand.

Do I hate this creature? It is a battle every day not to. Do I hate the things he has done and continues to do. You Better Believe It! Do I pray for him? You Better Believe It! For him and for everyone in this family and extended family. Do I allow him within a 20 mile radius? Not On Your Life. If I see him, I call the courts and the cops. He has 4 outstanding warrants against him.

Like I said before, we tried to get the police to do something. Their hands were tied. Senior Services wouldn't do anything either because Mom owned her own home.

It took Husband and middle brother 3 months to get conservatorship over Mom. Youngest brother refused to show up in court for the conservatorship - had he, he would have been arrested- had warrants out on him.

That is just what one man who is a meth addict has caused. I don't know about the other children that have been affected, we know that there are quite a few. Those who he taught how to steal debit cards and credit cards at the grocery check out.

As LDS, I know I should not wish harm to come to these addicts. Yet when I see the lives this one creature has destroyed, I don't want him to live. I want meth to be eradicated from the face of the earth. I want the meth dealers to be eradicated from the face of the earth. Perhaps put them all on a very, very isolated island and let them cook it up and take it till they eradicate themselves. Put the women on one island and the men on another so they don't have babies. No way would I want innocents brought into a life like that.

I pray for him, for all of them, and I pray for myself so that I may have compassion for them. I pray that the anger and hatred that I have will be banished from me. Father knows how hard this is for me, He knows the struggle I go through. And I am just a married into the family- my Husband is blood kin! I pray for him too- for he is going through 1,000 times more anguish than I could ever think of.

Eradicate Meth, all illegal drugs. Educate yourselves to what it is, where it is and how it affects you. I don't know if the mods will keep this link on the board. I will send it to Skalen first and then he can add it to my post if the mods okay it. If they don't, well- if you are my friend, then pm me and I will give it to you.

[Redbeard]

Originally Posted by jjrogers

Smoking pot does have effects many people don't realize. If a pre teen girl smokes pot it can actually halt puberty. If a man smokes it he can grow breasts. I had a drug brain and behavior class in college. when the professor made the statemnet that a man can grow breasts, the guy behind me said, that can't really happen can it? We all knew who was smoking too much pot. So just because pot may not make you violent like crystal meth does not mean it is not affecting your body.

Wow... you should probably look up modern medicine, cannabis does not effect growth hormones whatsoever, it cannot stunt growth, and men will not grow breasts.

Health issues and effects of cannabis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Iggy

First of all if I could give more than one Thanks...

That was indeed a compelling story, however it seems like most of the arguments against legalization are because of personal bad experiences, which are emotionally based... Not really that helpful for a good discussion. I have to wonder if either of those situations would have ever happened if drugs were not illegal. Of course it's ridiculous for me to assume that, but hey, we can all throw in our opinion right?

Anyway, all drugs are illegal, and our government spends hundreds of millions of dollars trying to eradicate all drugs. It still has not stopped people from growing them, and people from using them. Prohibition is not working.

[skalenfehl]

Just a quick note to thank you, Redbeard for your objective replies. I will need to take time to back up all of my claims, if I can. Fent also brings up some good points as has Iggy. I think we are looking at two different scenarios. One is that my experience comes first hand and that I have seen the effect on drugs in children and teens in my community and their schools and even in my neighborhood. Your experience seems to come with college students and mature adults. Furthermore your emphasis is solely on marijuana. My emphasis is on crystal meth, cocaine, heroine, LSD, ecstasy and more. In other words the whole nine yards. I have already agreed that marijuana as a medicine should be regulated but that's where I draw the line. Meth, cocaine, heroine, and other narcotics have no medicinal or beneficial value.

As an adoptive father I have taken classes provided by my city required for being a foster parent. One of the most crucial things we are taught is how to lock up our prescription drugs and harmful products in our homes. I had turned the linen closet in my master bedroom into a lock vault where all my prescription drugs and harmful chemicals (cleaners, weed killers, poisons, etc) and put a key lock on my master bedroom door because kids today are stealing prescription drugs and aerosol cans to huff and having fun with them and distributing them at school. Unfortunately I didn't keep the data. My son also told me that when he took drugs and dealt drugs, nobody in his network that smoked marijuana stopped there. We are talking about pre-teens and teens. He himself became a full blown shooter by the time he was 13.

My entire point is that harmful drugs and narcotics do hurt others. There effects are far reaching, especially among youth. If nobody in your community or in your college has been exposed in some way, then count yourself lucky, but I'm willing to bet that the youth in your area are being exposed to it every day at school. I can count in both of my hands the kids that I know in my neighborhood that have been exposed to it and have experimented with it. And I live in a good ol' fashion Mormon community. Go figure.

[skalenfehl]

Originally Posted by RachelleDrew

Dude, they get the moobs from consuming too many Cheetos during midnight munchies.

moobs?!?

Originally Posted by fent

I don't know about meth but cocaine and heroin both started out as medication. Cocaine is an anaesthetic, I forgot what heroin was for though.

Eeks, my mistake. Apparently I didn't realize that some drugs started out as medication and I should have checked up on it first. I appreciate the correction. I really try to stay informed so I don't make blind statements, but I am still learning. I'll look into that as well.

[Iggy]

Even if they legalize and tax meth- there will still be those who will concoct it in their own homes because it is CHEAP to do so. Believe me the manufacturer's of meth won't sell it for cheap if it is legalized. They are going to make bucks off of it. Just like the liquor industry, and the tobacco industry.

It is a bad drug. Very bad drug. The Oregonian did an expose on it a few years ago. A Multnomah County Sheriff noticed that repeat meth offenders were aging in a rapid way. He started keeping track of them with photos. Then the Oregonian got in on the act and the expose they did is remarkable.

Like I said earlier, I can provide a web link so that you can see just how horrible this recreational drug is. How it affects the body, and when high what people do on it. It affects the endorphins in the brain- the feel good/sexually good endorphins. It destroys them. Thus making the addict take more meth, and try more extreme things to get the sexual high.

It should never be legalized, ever. It needs to be eliminated from the face of the earth forever.

Recreational drugs ... The only thing I would like to add on this subject is that there really is no such thing as recreational drugs. Our human mind will likes drugs, and we eventually find a way to try and have our cake and eat it to. Those that try drugs, will find a way to get them cheaper & and of higher quality. The Movie BLOW is based on a true story. Its rated R, but is one of those that shows how devestating it can be .... and how it can all start from smoking a joint.

[LegendadryPerc]

Whether "most" drug users harm others or not seems to not be as important as the fact that many do. I doubt "most" people who do many things that are illeagal because of their potential affect on others, harm others. That doesn't mean that we should not have laws against such stuff. Doubtfull that "most" times someone drives drunk, a tragedy occurs.
So, is the arguement still "do drugs affect others" or has it now shifted to "drugs do bad things, but what course of action will most effectively protect people from these things?"
Also, I don't know much about drugs, it's a disturbing topic, and I see no benifit of knowing the difference between cocaine and meth, but it seems that marijuana is completely different from meth.
I can understand the "alone by yourself" arguement for alchohol, but drugs (including tobacco) that are smoked, affect others - unless of course you are in the middle of nowhere. When you don't have the luxury of living in the middle of nowhere, your neibors smoke, and you don't have airconditioning, it's hard to believe it is their "right" to get filtered smoke, while you die either from heat exhaustion, or second hand smoke, especially with small children/when preg.
Ya, we have laws against smoking at parks, etc. but I am constantly asking people to politely go somewhere else. People seem to think that being outside, makes it perfectly acceptable to smoke right next to someone - like being outside is going to magically prevent the smoke from being there.
Then, is drug use personal choice? When you are drunk, high, whatever, are you making a personal choice? Can you be making a personal choice when you no longer have control over your thoughts, body, actions?
A war on drugs doesn't necisarily mean they have to be illeagal. A war (call it moral if you want) merely should use the best recourse to accomplish it's goal. Obviously the current war isn't working and uses a lot of money. What other strategies might work better? Is our fear of backfire justifiable? Is this fear made greater because, although usually it is wonderfull to live in a democracy, making and disolving laws is painfully slow. If legalizing drugs turns out worse - it will probably take a life-time to legalize them, and then another lifetime to fix that error. Can we afford that risk? Rather scary stuff! Wish I knew all the answers.