The drugs debate

[skalenfehl]

Fascism is defined by Wikipedia as authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.

Because I don't believe anyone should do drugs is my prerogative as is someone's prerogative to believe that everyone should do drugs and that marijuana should be legalized. Where one crosses the line into Fascism is when one seeks to enforce this by totalitarian attempts to impose state control for example through a dictatorship and oppressive measures. Just because someone thinks it should be legal or doesn't think it should be legal does not make one Fascist. There is a difference between believing that nobody should or should not hurt themselves and then usurping power to enforce it.

Liberty functions from the bottom up (we the people), not dictated from the top down. So if the majority of the people vote in a Democracy to legalize drugs, then that is the law of the land and we believe in honoring the law, though I will never do drugs, I'd have now be more careful of its exposure to my family. So yes, something should be legal or illegal because the majority voted this way (abortion, legalizing drugs, etc), though it doesn't necessarily make it right. The voice of the people have spoken. The point of this debate is does it affect someone else? My answer is yes! I have lived through the effects of someone else doing drugs that have affected both my boys who have done it all.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

If I were to go home, and smoke a big 'ol bowl of marijauna, how does that effect you at all? How does it effect my family at all?

There are many people across the country who smoke marijuana in the privacy of their own home unaware that the fumes make their way into the apartment above, where an elderly man lives or perhaps mixing chemicals to make meth while the ammonia fumes seep into the next room where a child is playing. There are countless meth labs in the country where something goes wrong and in an explosion takes out the criminal along with the neighboring family, who is barbecuing next door. There are countless children, including my adopted son who was born a crack baby because his biological mother chose to do every drug in the book and in an altered state of mind decided to sleep around and have many children. There is a supplier dealing right now without any concern for the consequences of who his drugs reach when he deals with someone who just wants to smoke it by himself without hurting anyone. Meanwhile the profit that he creates for his supplier, supporting his business is used to make more drugs, which end up at the elementary school down my street and into the hands of my neighbor's children who become addicted and pass it on to my children or my nieces and nephews.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

Should we outlaw knifes because people have been stabbed? Guns because people have been shot? Rope because people have been hung? The argument that they can be used to commit a crime is flawed. Not EVERYONE who has used recreational drugs has ruined their life, or the lives of others.

You are right. Guns don't kill people, knives don't kill people, ropes don't kill people. People kill people, drug dealers kill people. But guns are also used for hunting for food for survival, and also for sport and other recreational activities. Knives are implements used for a vast variety of reasons such as surgical procedures, cutting up food, or carving a sculpture and creating art. Ropes also have a wide range of uses, such as tying up packages or saving a life with a life preserver attached. Ropes are used for securing things to your car when you go on long trips or for construction. The list goes on and on.

What beneficial uses does crystal meth have? Cocaine? PCP? etc? If someone wants to do drugs, they cannot intelligently believe that doing drugs does not have an effect on someone else because it does. They perpetuate the supply and demand which trickles down to the average innocent child because the hardened drug dealers do not care who ends up with drugs. Their only concern is the profit that it brings.

Many drugs are regulated. If marijuana has medicinal benefits then it should be regulated like any prescription drug that you buy at a pharmacy. If by some bizarre coincidence, crystal meth in a certain safe dose cures brain cancer, then by all means, let it be produced and regulated. The problem that I see here is that drugs have no beneficial purpose other than to harm, destroy or kill whether it's yourself or someone else and it's the someone else, especially someone else, that concerns me because someone else is always affected.

Regardless of what country or set of laws we live, we are all human beings living in the same world and drugs are not something that knows boundaries or borders. I will never vote to legalize something just because someone wants to do it to themselves, because that kind of irresponsible thinking does not see reason through. They simply aren't doing it to just themselves.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

If you disagree with drug use, DON'T DO DRUGS! But telling other people they don't have the right to choose because you don't agree with it is removing agency and liberty from other people.

This does not account for the countless children in elementary school who are being introduced to drugs in the form of candy who do not yet have a full grasp of the consequences, thereby affecting their agency. Even the most vigilant parents have very young children who are exposed to this terrible growing trend.

[Hemidakota]

Ditto brother....

Skal,

Nice post! You've put some excellent thought into that.

[Hemidakota]

When I searched the Ensign of the church, I am always floored on the amount of articles that just deals with drugs in general. I am thankful for those who contribute in allowing others to know of the dangers of this issue in our own day.

Out of 407 hits:

When a Teenager Uses Drugs or Alcohol: How to Cope …
in Ensign Mar. 1988 by Sue Bergin
...watch your teenager suffer from alcohol or drug abuse. How can parents cope? And what can ... . The Problem among LDS Youth Is Real Drug abuse among youth crosses all barriers- ... sponsored by the National Institute on Drug Abuse. 1) These facts should not be taken...

Love of the Right
in Conference Report, April 1971 by Marvin J. Ashton
...are made aware of the fact that there are drug users even among the twelve- to thirteen ... rob an individual of his sense of values. Drug-tampering youth are playing copycat in ... element. May I recommend, as we look at drug abuse or other social problems, that we...

Life Is Eternal
in Ensign June 1971 by Ezra Taft Benson
...are made aware of the fact that there are drug users even among the twelve- to thirteen ... rob an individual of his sense of values. Drug-tampering youth are playing copycat in ... element. May I recommend, as we look at drug abuse or other social problems, that we...

Random Sampler
in Ensign Aug. 1985
...adverse side effects. While serving on the Drug Specifications Committee for Los Angeles ... manufacturing process of this particular generic drug... physician if there is an acceptable generic drug available and, if so, to indicate this ... caused the nausea. Other generic drugs

The Scourge of Illicit Drugs
in Ensign Nov. 1989 by Gordon B. Hinckley
...crimes committed in their neighborhoods are drug related. Also, 70% of those with children ... of the United States has described the drug problem as the gravest domestic threat ... great deal' or `quite a bit' to correct the drug problem." A woman respondent said, "No...

The Scourge of Illicit Drugs
in Conference Report, October 1989 by Gordon B. Hinckley
...crimes committed in their neighborhoods are drug related. Also, 70% of those with children ... of the United States has described the drug problem as the gravest domestic threat ... dealA* or A*quite a bitA* to correct the drug problem.A* A woman respondent said, A*...

Random Sampler
in Ensign Oct. 1991
...Ensign, Oct 1991, 70-71 Rx for Avoiding Drug Interactions D. Richard Hurley, "Rx for Avoiding Drug Interactions," Ensign, Oct. 1991, 70 ... bed in eight is occupied by a victim of a drug reaction or interaction. These reactions...

Challenges for the Year Ahead
in BYU Speeches 1973 by Dallin H. Oaks - 6 September 1973
...personal observations and experience with drug users have given me some indelible convictions ... distribution of any narcotic or dangerous drug... allowance for probation. Persons guilty of drug offenses can, of course, repent and change... . . . , except as prescribed by a licensed

Testimonies from the Inner City
in Ensign Apr. 1992 by LaRene Gaunt
...concrete nearby, sleeping. At the curb, a drug dealer's luxury car sits parked in front ... circumstances in America: poverty, crime, drug... One of those people was my husband, whose drug use was dragging me down. I knew I was ... addiction, physical and sexual abuse, and

Addiction or Freedom
in Ensign Nov. 1988 by Russell M. Nelson
...deep concern--the worldwide epidemic of drug addiction. As a medical doctor, my study ... declared nicotine to be a powerfully addicting drug in the same sense as are drugs such as ... behavior is substantially controlled by a drug. We understand those feelings. Alcohol...

Addiction or Freedom
in Conference Report, October 1988 by Russell M. Nelson
...deep concern--the worldwide epidemic of drug addiction. As a medical doctor, my study ... declared nicotine to be a powerfully addicting drug in the same sense as are drugs such as ... behavior is substantially controlled by a drug. We understand those feelings. Alcohol...

Alcohol Addiction: Hope for Understanding and Recovery
in Ensign July 1981 by James R. Goodrich
...unintentional lesson taught. We live in a drug-oriented culture that has produced a host ... serious health threat. But the greatest drug problem of all lies in alcohol consumption ... needed help and was admitted to a local drug and alcohol treatment center, only his ...

News of the Church
in Ensign Feb. 1988
...doing?" Elder Backman Named to White House Drug Panel "Elder Backman Named to White House Drug Panel," Ensign, Feb. 1988, 75 Washington ...Drug-Free America. Elder Backman was selected... conferee to the White House Conference for a

Tobacco: Quitting for Good
in Ensign Feb. 2002 by Janet Brigham
...the National Clearinghouse on Alcohol and Drug Information, P.O. Box 2345, Rockville, ... others, "Nicotine Withdrawal versus Other Drug... Addiction 86 (1991): 621-25. 6. U.S. Food and Drug Administration, Nicotine in Cigarettes ... Withdrawal Syndromes: Similarities and

News of the Church
in Ensign Apr. 1985
.... Senate Subcommittee on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse which supports banning or severely ... alcohol is the most widely used and abused drug in America. It is ironic that there are ... deserve our best efforts to protect them from drug abuse. Existing scientific evidence of ...

With Love— from the Prodigal's Sister
in Ensign June 1991 by Name Withheld
...consequences of his actions. He received help at a drug treatment center for youth and has been totally drug-free for more than a year. Bill's victory over drug addiction is a success story, but the story...

Portraits
in Ensign Feb. 1991
...national attention was focused on alcohol and drug addiction, Brother Whitehouse was interested ... and the problems of tobacco, alcohol, and drug abuse. The program eventually spread from ... governor of Texas for his efforts to fight drug abuse, and he has also been appointed to...

9. How do Latter-day Saints believe they should live their lives?
in Latter-day Christianity: 10 Basic Issues by Robert L. Millet, Noel B. Reynolds
..."Religion and Drug Use," Journal of Drug Education 22/1 (1992): ...

Should the Commandments Be Rewritten?
in Ensign Dec. 1971 by Richard L. Evans
...distortion of definitions. To describe a drug experience he uses the term `mind expanding ... today a rock festival that is not also a drug festival, a sex festival, and a rebellion ... points to "a new direction in the rock-drug culture [which is] hailed by many ministers...

Covenants
in Ensign Nov. 1990 by Boyd K. Packer
...abortion, the gay-lesbian movement, and drug addiction. They are debated in forums and ... specifically forbid abortion or a gay-lesbian or drug-centered life-style. "If they are so wrong ... that most people are drawn into a life of drug addiction or perversion or submit to an...

The Word of Wisdom
in Conference Report, April 1976 by Theodore M. Burton
... the 1960s there was much ado about the drug culture, and with very good cause. As we ... predicament. Frightening and vicious though drug... and tobacco. They constitute our major drug problem today, for these substances are... use is, equally destructive in the long

When the Happy Ending Hasn't Happened—Yet
in Ensign Feb. 1993 by Name Withheld
...times. It was the late sixties, and the drug culture was so new we just didn't discern ... coming to terms with our beloved child's drug abuse. First of all, we had to deal with ... didn't want anyone to know about Kevin's drug problem. We both had ward callings, and...

"Shake Off the Chains with Which Ye Are Bound"
in Ensign Nov. 1986 by Marvin J. Ashton
...husband and father who is participating in drug abuse. He stands to lose family, employment ... witnessed in my life are people living with drug... peace, and purpose. Anyone who tells you drug use is the "fun" way is a liar. Any judge... addiction. They are prisoners within their

Satan's Thrust—Youth
in Conference Report, October 1971 by Ezra Taft Benson
...distortion of definitions. To describe a drug experience he uses the term A*mind expandingA ... today a rock festival that is not also a drug festival, a sex festival, and a rebellion ... points to A*a new direction in the rock-drug culture [which is] hailed by many ministers...

[Redbeard]

Very well thought out Skalenfehl, I feel special for being the focus of a post too

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Fascism is defined by Wikipedia as authoritarian nationalist political ideologies or mass movements that are concerned with notions of cultural decline or decadence and seek to achieve a national rebirth by exalting the nation or race, and promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.

First off, since this I'm guessing this is about the drugs I will go ahead and leave this be, I don't think it needs much of a response from me.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Because I don't believe anyone should do drugs is my prerogative as is someone's prerogative to believe that everyone should do drugs and that marijuana should be legalized. Where one crosses the line into Fascism is when one seeks to enforce this by totalitarian attempts to impose state control for example through a dictatorship and oppressive measures. Just because someone thinks it should be legal or doesn't think it should be legal does not make one Fascist. There is a difference between believing that nobody should or should not hurt themselves and then usurping power to enforce it.

While the first part of this paragraph is a little hard for me to understand (be nice to me, I'm on meds...) I believe what you are trying to say is: "The difference between a facsist and myself is while I don't believe drugs should be used, I am not going to try to change the law myself to have everything go my way."

Forgive me if I got that wrong, you may have to speak very slowly to me today

If that is what your saying, then kudos to you, I appreciate your open mindedness. If not, please clarify in 2nd grade language for me lol.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Liberty functions from the bottom up (we the people), not dictated from the top down. So if the majority of the people vote in a Democracy to legalize drugs, then that is the law of the land and we believe in honoring the law, though I will never do drugs, I'd have now be more careful of its exposure to my family. So yes, something should be legal or illegal because the majority voted this way (abortion, legalizing drugs, etc), though it doesn't necessarily make it right. The voice of the people have spoken. The point of this debate is does it affect someone else? My answer is yes! I have lived through the effects of someone else doing drugs that have affected both my boys who have done it all.

I agree, and while recreational drugs are currently illegal, I will not use them. However, just because a law is one way, does not mean that people should support it unquestionably. Remember, at one time slavery was the law, as was the lack of womens and other races rights. I am simply saying that people should not be held responsible for other peoples lack of judgement.

*off topic* I applaud you for adopting, you are truly a great person in my book for getting those children away from a bad enviroment, and raising them to the best of your ability! Thank you for your contribution to bettering the world, and I do mean that whole heartedly.
*back on topic*

I am not advocating that people who abuse drugs should have the right to do so and harm families. I am simply stating that if a person is responsible it should be no one else's business but their own what they do with their own body. If you have children, do not smoke around them, whether that be tobacco or canibis. If you drink achohol, do not drive, or abuse your family. I know many people who drink alchohol that have never drivin drunk, never abused family members, and never broken a law. Why should their rights be taken away because of a drunk driver who is not responsible? My same argument goes for people who smoke marijuana, If you are going to do it, make sure you are being responsible, nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

There are many people across the country who smoke marijuana in the privacy of their own home unaware that the fumes make their way into the apartment above, where an elderly man lives or perhaps mixing chemicals to make meth while the ammonia fumes seep into the next room where a child is playing. There are countless meth labs in the country where something goes wrong and in an explosion takes out the criminal along with the neighboring family, who is barbecuing next door. There are countless children, including my adopted son who was born a crack baby because his biological mother chose to do every drug in the book and in an altered state of mind decided to sleep around and have many children. There is a supplier dealing right now without any concern for the consequences of who his drugs reach when he deals with someone who just wants to smoke it by himself without hurting anyone. Meanwhile the profit that he creates for his supplier, supporting his business is used to make more drugs, which end up at the elementary school down my street and into the hands of my neighbor's children who become addicted and pass it on to my children or my nieces and nephews.

That's a long one, I hope I don't miss anything-

First off, marijuana smoke going from one apartment to another? If there is not proper enough filtration to stop the smoke from going to multiple apartments, they should be condemmed , but out of all of the smokes out there, marijuana has continually been shown to be the least damaging (compared to fire/tobacco). The other point you brought up is meth labs. With legalized recreational drugs, drugs would be created and distributed by actual companies, being kept in check by the goverment. No more backyard meth labs .

What has been done to your child because of his biological mother is indeed a heinous crime. But look at it this way- RIGHT NOW drugs are illegal, and his mother used them. Some people will use drugs irresponsibly whether or not they are illegal. How would keeping the drugs illegal change that situation? Stolen from a site (forget where...)
If drugs were legalized we would have-

1.) Purity assurance under Food and Drug Administration regulation;
2.) Labeled concentration of the product (to avoid overdose);
3.) Obliteration of vigorous marketing ("pushers");
4.) Obliteration of drug crime and reduction of theft crime
5.) Savings in expensive enforcement and
6.) Significant tax revenues

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

You are right. Guns don't kill people, knives don't kill people, ropes don't kill people. People kill people, drug dealers kill people. But guns are also used for hunting for food for survival, and also for sport and other recreational activities. Knives are implements used for a vast variety of reasons such as surgical procedures, cutting up food, or carving a sculpture and creating art. Ropes also have a wide range of uses, such as tying up packages or saving a life with a life preserver attached. Ropes are used for securing things to your car when you go on long trips or for construction. The list goes on and on

What beneficial uses does crystal meth have? Cocaine? PCP? etc? If someone wants to do drugs, they cannot intelligently believe that doing drugs does not have an effect on someone else because it does. They perpetuate the supply and demand which trickles down to the average innocent child because the hardened drug dealers do not care who ends up with drugs. Their only concern is the profit that it brings.

Yes, supply and demand, that if legalized would be regulated by the goverment! If drugs are legalized, why would we still have backstreet drug dealers? Alchohol and tobacco are illegal to minors under 21, but you don't see alchohol and tobacco dealers on the street corners do you?

As for medical uses of drugs, you can check those out for yourself, but the other use for recreational drugs is just that RECREATION. Is it something that I want to do for recreation? No, but other people do, as long as they are being responsible, why should we stop them?

For everyone else:
Medical cannabis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cocaine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Methamphetamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Phencyclidine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Many drugs are regulated. If marijuana has medicinal benefits then it should be regulated like any prescription drug that you buy at a pharmacy. If by some bizarre coincidence, crystal meth in a certain safe dose cures brain cancer, then by all means, let it be produced and regulated. The problem that I see here is that drugs have no beneficial purpose other than to harm, destroy or kill whether it's yourself or someone else and it's the someone else, especially someone else, that concerns me because someone else is always affected.

First off, just about every scientific journal has published the medicinal benifits of marijuana... But the point of drugs is not just medication. Some people want to get high once in a while. If they do so in a responsible manner, who are we to tell them they shouldn't be allowed to?

And just for examples sake, please indicate to me who is being effected besides myself in this SAMPLE (as in, never happened) situation:

I am sitting alone in my house, which I own. Not a duplex, apartment or anything else. I decide to smoke some marijuana which I have grown in my house in a secret lair (Just for clarification this is all an example...) I smoke the marijuana, and then lounge around my house watching Fox's Family Guy. I then go to bed, and wake up the next morning and go out to mow my lawn. The end.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Regardless of what country or set of laws we live, we are all human beings living in the same world and drugs are not something that knows boundaries or borders. I will never vote to legalize something just because someone wants to do it to themselves, because that kind of irresponsible thinking does not see reason through. They simply aren't doing it to just themselves.

Um... some people do... How about the hash bars in amsterdam? When was the last time you heard of a guy going to a hash bar, then going out and shooting up a family? There are quite a few people in the world that lead incredibly productive lives, and still partake in recreational drug use. How do you explain that?

Erowid Character Vaults : Famous People and their Drug Use

Yes, there are people on that list who did not use them responsibly, and they are not the ones I'm talking about...

Amos, Tori
The Beatles
Charles, Ray
Churchill, Winston
Clapton, Eric
Clinton, William
Dickens, Charles
Dumas, Alexander
Edison, Thomas
Freud, Sigmund
Gates, Bill
Ginsberg, Allen
Gore, Al
Gore, Tipper
Grant, Ulysses S
Hemingway, Ernest
Harrelson, Woody
Jackson, Andrew
Jefferson, Thomas
Jobs, Steve
John, Elton
Jolie, Angelina

I'll go ahead and stop there, but you get the point.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

This does not account for the countless children in elementary school who are being introduced to drugs in the form of candy who do not yet have a full grasp of the consequences, thereby affecting their agency. Even the most vigilant parents have very young children who are exposed to this terrible growing trend.

Once again, would not be a problem if drugs were legalized and regulated.

Anyway, hope all of that made sense, I'm still a little loopy, but getting better as the day moves on.

[skalenfehl]

I'll go ahead and leave the Fascism part out, because all it really means is that if I'm Fascist, I am going to take over the government and impose my system of beliefs on everyone by force. I will make everyone do what is right because that is what I believe. Sound familiar? (Lucifer, Hitler, etc).

Now to address the heart of the matter: Does using harmful drugs affect anyone else? Again, my answer is yes. There may be exceptions to the rule. Someone who lives in the the lone prairies of Podunk USA, who grows a few plants for himself will very likely not affect me. This is hardly the case.

Slavery and women's suffrage hardly compares to the distribution of drugs and narcotics to children. I'm defending right from wrong. Slavery is wrong and so is distributing harmful substances where others are directly and indirectly affected. But this brings another good point. Why is it ok to lobby and fight to right a wrong, but not to wrong a right? Because it doesn't affect someone else? That is a selfish and irresponsible statement and no drug dealer or drug user really cares, especially when addiction takes over.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

I am simply stating that if a person is responsible it should be no one else's business but their own what they do with their own body.

*IF*. Seldom do harmful drugs and narcotics and being responsible go hand in hand. There are isolated exceptions but this is simply not the rule. Where you have enough to make your own dime bag hardly compares to the millions if not billions of dollars of drugs that are trafficked regularly that reach my children and your children.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

If you have children, do not smoke around them, whether that be tobacco or canibis.

In my experience there are two kinds of people when it comes to drugs. Those that have been affected by it and those who are about to be affected by it. By the time my boys were in middle school they were smart enough to know where all the dealers in my city were and the next city over where my younger son now lives. They know where to go to score a hit right now and very likely who's growing their own personal stashes.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

First off, marijuana smoke going from one apartment to another? If there is not proper enough filtration to stop the smoke from going to multiple apartments, they should be condemmed

Do you know how many low/no income families live in slums that should have been condemned decades ago with zero ventilation?

Originally Posted by Redbeard

but out of all of the smokes out there, marijuana has continually been shown to be the least damaging (compared to fire/tobacco).

My boys both knew from the start that marijuana is a gateway drug. When someone rationalizes one wrong, it becomes easier to rationalize another and so on. And this is what happens. You start with something "harmless" and soon you're moving on to a bigger high.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

With legalized recreational drugs, drugs would be created and distributed by actual companies, being kept in check by the goverment. No more backyard meth labs

Cigarettes are supposedly being kept in check right now, but apparently it's not good enough because I see commercials every day telling us what cigarettes contain in order to keep consumers addicted. As I type this my unemployed son is trying to figure out how he's going to buy his next pack, including selling whatever he owns. What makes you think the "pot industry" won't begin to include the same or other addictive ingredients in order to keep their customers coming back for more in the name of the almighty dollar?

Originally Posted by Redbeard

If drugs were legalized we would have-

1.) Purity assurance under Food and Drug Administration regulation;
2.) Labeled concentration of the product (to avoid overdose);
3.) Obliteration of vigorous marketing ("pushers");
4.) Obliteration of drug crime and reduction of theft crime
5.) Savings in expensive enforcement and
6.) Significant tax revenues

Cigarettes contain ingredients not labeled on the box such as arsenic. But the tobacco companies won't tell you this. But here is a list of what tobacco companies have reported to contain:

The List

* Acetanisole
* Acetic Acid
* Acetoin
* Acetophenone
* 6-Acetoxydihydrotheaspirane
* 2-Acetyl-3- Ethylpyrazine
* 2-Acetyl-5-Methylfuran
* Acetylpyrazine
* 2-Acetylpyridine
* 3-Acetylpyridine
* 2-Acetylthiazole
* Aconitic Acid
* dl-Alanine
* Alfalfa Extract
* Allspice Extract,Oleoresin, and Oil
* Allyl Hexanoate
* Allyl Ionone
* Almond Bitter Oil
* Ambergris Tincture
* Ammonia
* Ammonium Bicarbonate
* Ammonium Hydroxide
* Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic
* Ammonium Sulfide
* Amyl Alcohol
* Amyl Butyrate
* Amyl Formate
* Amyl Octanoate
* alpha-Amylcinnamaldehyde
* Amyris Oil
* trans-Anethole
* Angelica Root Extract, Oil and Seed Oil
* Anise
* Anise Star, Extract and Oils
* Anisyl Acetate
* Anisyl Alcohol
* Anisyl Formate
* Anisyl Phenylacetate
* Apple Juice Concentrate, Extract, and Skins
* Apricot Extract and Juice Concentrate
* 1-Arginine
* Asafetida Fluid Extract And Oil
* Ascorbic Acid
* 1-Asparagine Monohydrate
* 1-Aspartic Acid
* Balsam Peru and Oil
* Basil Oil
* Bay Leaf, Oil and Sweet Oil
* Beeswax White
* Beet Juice Concentrate
* Benzaldehyde
* Benzaldehyde Glyceryl Acetal
* Benzoic Acid, Benzoin
* Benzoin Resin
* Benzophenone
* Benzyl Alcohol
* Benzyl Benzoate
* Benzyl Butyrate
* Benzyl Cinnamate
* Benzyl Propionate
* Benzyl Salicylate
* Bergamot Oil
* Bisabolene
* Black Currant Buds Absolute
* Borneol
* Bornyl Acetate
* Buchu Leaf Oil
* 1,3-Butanediol
* 2,3-Butanedione
* 1-Butanol
* 2-Butanone
* 4(2-Butenylidene)-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One
* Butter, Butter Esters, and Butter Oil
* Butyl Acetate
* Butyl Butyrate
* Butyl Butyryl Lactate
* Butyl Isovalerate
* Butyl Phenylacetate
* Butyl Undecylenate
* 3-Butylidenephthalide
* Butyric Acid]
* Cadinene
* Caffeine
* Calcium Carbonate
* Camphene
* Cananga Oil
* Capsicum Oleoresin
* Caramel Color
* Caraway Oil
* Carbon Dioxide
* Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder
* Carob Bean and Extract
* beta-Carotene
* Carrot Oil
* Carvacrol
* 4-Carvomenthenol
* 1-Carvone
* beta-Caryophyllene
* beta-Caryophyllene Oxide
* Cascarilla Oil and Bark Extract
* Cassia Bark Oil
* Cassie Absolute and Oil
* Castoreum Extract, Tincture and Absolute
* Cedar Leaf Oil
* Cedarwood Oil Terpenes and Virginiana
* Cedrol
* Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin
* Cellulose Fiber
* Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract
* Chicory Extract
* Chocolate
* Cinnamaldehyde
* Cinnamic Acid
* Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract
* Cinnamyl Acetate
* Cinnamyl Alcohol
* Cinnamyl Cinnamate
* Cinnamyl Isovalerate
* Cinnamyl Propionate
* Citral
* Citric Acid
* Citronella Oil
* dl-Citronellol
* Citronellyl Butyrate
* itronellyl Isobutyrate
* Civet Absolute
* Clary Oil
* Clover Tops, Red Solid Extract
* Cocoa
* Cocoa Shells, Extract, Distillate And Powder
* Coconut Oil
* Coffee
* Cognac White and Green Oil
* Copaiba Oil
* Coriander Extract and Oil
* Corn Oil
* Corn Silk
* Costus Root Oil
* Cubeb Oil
* Cuminaldehyde
* para-Cymene
* 1-Cysteine

The List of Additives in Cigarettes

And that is only A-C! Never mind D-Z. What is pure about these ingredients? And this from a "tobacco" industry. Once upon a time people just wanted to smoke plain ol' tobacco!

"It's chilling to think about not only how smokers poison themselves, but what others are exposed to by breathing in the secondhand smoke. The next time you're missing your old buddy, the cigarette, take a good long look at this list and see them for what they are: a delivery system for toxic chemicals and carcinogens. Cigarettes offer people only a multitude of smoking-related diseases and ultimately death. The 599 Ingredient List was first published on April 12, 1994 by the six American cigarette companies. Provided here in it's entirety, this list will open your eyes as to what is actually in cigarettes.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

Yes, supply and demand, that if legalized would be regulated by the goverment! If drugs are legalized, why would we still have backstreet drug dealers? Alchohol and tobacco are illegal to minors under 21, but you don't see alchohol and tobacco dealers on the street corners do you?

No. But two of them were living under my roof as young teenagers hiding their dime bags and stash where I couldn't find it. Not only did they become hooked on the green, but they both became dealers of it and much harder drugs. If it can happen to me it can happen to you. The government regulating drugs like it regulates cigarettes? Or the sales of alcohol and cigarettes to minors? They're doing a poor job. I see minors with cigarettes all the time. I'm granting you the fact that there are exceptions, but I'm looking at the whole. The bottom line for me is that drugs affect others whether or not JimJoeBob in Somewhere USA is growing his own personal stash. The proof is in your local elementary and middle schools.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

Once again, would not be a problem if drugs were legalized and regulated.

It would create a whole slew of new problems. The underground criminal drug dealers would then resort to another venue of high profit yielding criminal activity such as kidnapping, carjacking, etc. Criminals will not suddenly become law abiding citizens because their main source of income has been legalized and they just became outsourced. This has already been debated in Brazil:

“A Brazilian Walks Into An Amsterdam Hash Bar”: Gabeira on The Clockwork Orange The New Market Machines

"One of the best anti-drug ads I’ve seen, in fact, was a Brazilian spot in a which a young person says just this: “I do not think pot-smoking is such a big deal, but on the other hand, do I really want to be supporting an industry with blood on its hands?”"

Further effects would be prostitution, disease, heck read what another site has to say as it glorified Amsterdam:

Check your morals at the door and lock and dam the kids in the hotel room, it's Amsterdam time! Aaawww yeah! Soft drugs! Government sanctioned prostitution! Live sex shows! More sin than you can shake a bong at! This place makes Las Vegas look like Iowa City!

Check your Morals at the Door - Amsterdam, The Netherlands - BootsnAll.com

Like I said, marijuana is a gateway drug as is alcohol and both are gateways to even greater forms of corruption. When you have one person wanting the liberty to hurt himself, you'll get a whole generation of people wanting to hurt themselves and soon the whole society hurts themselves to the point where the government has to take over as it's doing now. Do you know where it stops? I do. I want to do everything in my power to slow it down or not be a part of it when the big ax falls.

[Redbeard]

Holy cow son! It's gonna take me a week just to read that, much less respond! Lol, I'll start reading and get back to you shortly.

[jjrogers]

Smoking pot does have effects many people don't realize. If a pre teen girl smokes pot it can actually halt puberty. If a man smokes it he can grow breasts. I had a drug brain and behavior class in college. when the professor made the statemnet that a man can grow breasts, the guy behind me said, that can't really happen can it? We all knew who was smoking too much pot. So just because pot may not make you violent like crystal meth does not mean it is not affecting your body.

[Redbeard]

Dang it, I had a big old response written out and like an idiot I hit the back button instead of submit... I'll just skip to the big things...

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

I'll go ahead and leave the Fascism part out, because all it really means is that if I'm Fascist, I am going to take over the government and impose my system of beliefs on everyone by force. I will make everyone do what is right because that is what I believe. Sound familiar? (Lucifer, Hitler, etc).

Gotcha, no argument there!

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Now to address the heart of the matter: Does using harmful drugs affect anyone else? Again, my answer is yes. There may be exceptions to the rule. Someone who lives in the the lone prairies of Podunk USA, who grows a few plants for himself will very likely not affect me. This is hardly the case.

Please show me proof that the majority of drug users damage society. No, that's not really a serious request, I'm simply trying to show you that there is no way to prove that either way, so you are just stating opinion. It's fine to have it, just don't say it like it's fact

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Slavery and women's suffrage hardly compares to the distribution of drugs and narcotics to children. I'm defending right from wrong. Slavery is wrong and so is distributing harmful substances where others are directly and indirectly affected. But this brings another good point. Why is it ok to lobby and fight to right a wrong, but not to wrong a right? Because it doesn't affect someone else? That is a selfish and irresponsible statement and no drug dealer or drug user really cares, especially when addiction takes over.

You are 100% correct, legalization of recreational drugs is by far not as important of a struggle compared to minority rights and slavery, but a wrong is a wrong!
Once again, unless you can prove that the majority of drug users are damaging peoples lives you are just giving your opinion, please try to link sources that would support your opinion.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

*IF*. Seldom do harmful drugs and narcotics and being responsible go hand in hand. There are isolated exceptions but this is simply not the rule. Where you have enough to make your own dime bag hardly compares to the millions if not billions of dollars of drugs that are trafficked regularly that reach my children and your children.

Which is how you have personally experienced them. My experience with people using recreational drugs has been completely opposite, the majority of the people that I know of that use drugs leave productive lives, they have jobs, and go to school, pay their bills, ect... now I should also mention that the majority of my friends are college students, so demographics will play big into that.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

In my experience there are two kinds of people when it comes to drugs. Those that have been affected by it and those who are about to be affected by it. By the time my boys were in middle school they were smart enough to know where all the dealers in my city were and the next city over where my younger son now lives. They know where to go to score a hit right now and very likely who's growing their own personal stashes.

I really am sorry for having such horrific experiences, I'm not so sure that if I were in your shoes I'd be fighting the same fight, but my personal experience with people and drugs has been nothing like that.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Do you know how many low/no income families live in slums that should have been condemned decades ago with zero ventilation?

Probably a lot, which is sad, but that delves into the area of drugs in different demographics...

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

My boys both knew from the start that marijuana is a gateway drug. When someone rationalizes one wrong, it becomes easier to rationalize another and so on. And this is what happens. You start with something "harmless" and soon you're moving on to a bigger high.

WHAT!?!? I haven't heard that in years! I will link some stories for you to check out, the majority of marijuana users never move on to try harder drugs, the reason the goverment got away with saying that is because most people who have tried harder drugs started out doing lighter ones. But that's pretty backwards thinking...

Gateway drug theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Myth of Marijuana's Gateway Effect
Study say marijuana no gateway drug | Science Blog
Marijuana Not A Gateway To Hard Drug Use, Rand Study Says<BR>Conclusions Raise Serious Doubts Regarding The Legitimacy Of U.S. Drug Policy - NORML
Myths and Facts About Marijuana

Anyway, that's pretty old info you got there, hopefully this will get you some up to date stuff.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Cigarettes are supposedly being kept in check right now, but apparently it's not good enough because I see commercials every day telling us what cigarettes contain in order to keep consumers addicted. As I type this my unemployed son is trying to figure out how he's going to buy his next pack, including selling whatever he owns. What makes you think the "pot industry" won't begin to include the same or other addictive ingredients in order to keep their customers coming back for more in the name of the almighty dollar?

Because marijuana sells itself... much like achohol

Ciggarettes on the other hand are literally addictive. And before you go out and try stating that marijuana is addictive, you should probably look up the most recent studies on that

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Cigarettes contain ingredients not labeled on the box such as arsenic. But the tobacco companies won't tell you this. But here is a list of what tobacco companies have reported to contain:

Yup, nastey stuff... but lucky for us marijuana is all natural

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

And that is only A-C! Never mind D-Z. What is pure about these ingredients? And this from a "tobacco" industry. Once upon a time people just wanted to smoke plain ol' tobacco!

Yup, but luckily there are already a ton of natural marijuana growers in the US, as long as its regulated we would continue harvesting pure canabis.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

No. But two of them were living under my roof as young teenagers hiding their dime bags and stash where I couldn't find it. Not only did they become hooked on the green, but they both became dealers of it and much harder drugs. If it can happen to me it can happen to you. The government regulating drugs like it regulates cigarettes? Or the sales of alcohol and cigarettes to minors? They're doing a poor job. I see minors with cigarettes all the time. I'm granting you the fact that there are exceptions, but I'm looking at the whole. The bottom line for me is that drugs affect others whether or not JimJoeBob in Somewhere USA is growing his own personal stash. The proof is in your local elementary and middle schools.

And like I said, unfortunatly I cannot compare to that situation, but it is your personal experience, and without some sort of evidence that the majority of users are the same way it doesn't really help in this debate. And yes, you do see minors with ciggarettes, but are they getting them from back alley dealers? No... at least not the kids I knew, they stole them from their parents, or had their older sibbling buy them.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

It would create a whole slew of new problems. The underground criminal drug dealers would then resort to another venue of high profit yielding criminal activity such as kidnapping, carjacking, etc. Criminals will not suddenly become law abiding citizens because their main source of income has been legalized and they just became outsourced. This has already been debated in Brazil

“A Brazilian Walks Into An Amsterdam Hash Bar”: Gabeira on The Clockwork Orange The New Market Machines

"One of the best anti-drug ads I’ve seen, in fact, was a Brazilian spot in a which a young person says just this: “I do not think pot-smoking is such a big deal, but on the other hand, do I really want to be supporting an industry with blood on its hands?”"

What?!?!? that's a slippery slope argument if I've ever heard one... We already have legalized marijuana in many states in the US, and we havent' had a problem like this yet.

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Further effects would be prostitution, disease, heck read what another site has to say as it glorified Amsterdam:

Check your Morals at the Door - Amsterdam, The Netherlands - BootsnAll.com

Like I said, marijuana is a gateway drug as is alcohol and both are gateways to even greater forms of corruption. When you have one person wanting the liberty to hurt himself, you'll get a whole generation of people wanting to hurt themselves and soon the whole society hurts themselves to the point where the government has to take over as it's doing now. Do you know where it stops? I do. I want to do everything in my power to slow it down or not be a part of it when the big ax falls.

Once again, obviously not true, since we have legalized marijuana in multiple states now, without those side effects...

Sorry for the short responses, but I'm frustrated I didn't keep my last ones

[RachelleDrew]

Originally Posted by jjrogers

Smoking pot does have effects many people don't realize. If a pre teen girl smokes pot it can actually halt puberty. If a man smokes it he can grow breasts.

Dude, they get the moobs from consuming too many Cheetos during midnight munchies.