Patriotism

[Brenton]

In this thread, topic has got off-topic a little, a moderator suggest i bring up a new thread to keep topics in cohesion, so here goes.

This is a contention thread, and everyone gets to contend their own thoughts, and it'll probably get a little "heated".

Contention: Patriotism is a disgusting and vile thing, its deluded, and shows complete lack of being all-encompassing (and for some theyre actually "going against" their religion to be patriotic)

Anyway, the topic that all this began in, was about Chinese Olympians, but this topic has nothing to do with China, or olympians.

Don't apologize. America is the most prosperous nation on earth. It is ok to show pride in your country. Just because someone uses statistics from Babylon (United Nations) doesn't mean we aren't the most prosperous nation on earth. Just look at our history. Sure we have problems just like every country but over our 200+ year history it is quite evident where the worlds population wanted to reside.

This is the sort of deluded statement I'm talking about. Listen to your politicians people (but lets keep it neutral by not naming names or parties) .. and the constant brainwashing of "God Bless America, the Best and Most prosperous nation on earth"...

We Americans live in the most prosperous nation on the planet

It's beautiful that you believe that. But it's total rubbish. America has economic problems pretty much all the time. Theyre fighting wars for oil (i know thats just my opinion, but i had to throw it in), also if education isnt private or you arent gifted then youll likely strike trouble because its far from well funded, the US doesnt make tops either according the thew UNs Human Development Index (US comes in 12th) Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... so definetly not most prosperous.

Now if anyone wants to say I'm discussing politics, and thats against the rules, well then were going to have to stop statements like "america is the best thisandthat" because thats a political statement too.

The Human Development Index (HDI) is an index combining normalized measures of life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita for countries worldwide. It is claimed as a standard means of measuring human development — a concept that, according to the United Nations Development Program (UNDP), refers to the process of widening the options of persons, giving them greater opportunities for education, health care, income, employment, etc. The basic use of HDI is to rank countries by level of "human development", which usually also implies to determine whether a country is a developed, developing, or underdeveloped country.

This is not a slander america topic, but its to maybe try and get a few people to see that patriotism is inhumane and just outright crap. Okay?


"Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism — how passionately I hate them!" - Albert Einstein

"There are two Americas. One is the America of Lincoln and Adlai Stevenson; the other is the America of Teddy Roosevelt and the modern superpatriots. One is generous and humane, the other narrowly egotistical; one is self-critical, the other self-righteous; one is sensible, the other romantic; one is good-humored, the other solemn; one is inquiring, the other pontificating; one is moderate, the other filled with passionate intensity; one is judicious and the other arrogant in the use of great power." J. William Fulbright, The Arrogance of Power (1966)

"Thinking men and women the world over are beginning to realize that patriotism is too narrow and limited a conception to meet the necessities of our time." Emma Goldman

"Conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. [...] Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others." Emma Goldman, Patriotism: a menace to liberty

"We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people. We hate bloodshed; we are opposed to violence. Yet we go into spasms of joy over the possibility of projecting dynamite bombs from flying machines upon helpless citizens. We are ready to hang, electrocute, or lynch anyone, who, from economic necessity, will risk his own life in the attempt upon that of some industrial magnate. Yet our hearts swell with pride at the thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and that she will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other nations. Such is the logic of patriotism." Emma Goldman, What is Patriotism? (1908)

"I hate patriotism! It's a round world the last time I checked." Bill Hicks

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." George Bernard Shaw

"Patriotism ... for rulers is nothing else than a tool for achieving their power-hungry and money-hungry goals, and for the ruled it means renouncing their human dignity, reason, conscience, and slavish submission to those in power. ... Patriotism is slavery." Leo Tolstoy, in his pamphlet Christianity and Patriotism

EDIT;

Remeber: We are not all going to agree, thats an impossiblity, because we'd need to be perfect in the totally flawless definition, which is impossible.

[Kirajo]

America has it's problems and evil crap, but when you compare it's power to a lot of other countries, it's pretty darn prosperous. But I wouldn't say anyone is capable of making a statement as bold as THE most prosperous nation on earth. There are just too many factors and evaluations needed.

[Brenton]

That's what I'm looking for.
It's appropriate to call yourself prosperous, but never most prosperous.
There's always someone somewhere better than you.

The interesting thing is, it's hard to measure what prosperous actually is?
Does it mean that everyone has strong families, with good careers?
Does it mean that people can freely choose, freely take, freely give, freely speak, freely practice (religion and so forth)?
I'm not talking about the dictionary meaning necesarily (personal interpretation here), so if someone throws that at me, watch out. haha. just kidding.

America has it's problems and evil crap

Just as does every country. I remember a video I watched someone talking about problems and he was saying "They're not Islamic problems, or Jewish problems, or Womens problems, or Financial problems, or Racial problems, theyre human problems.

[pam]

How is Patriotism inhumane and outright crap?

I love my country just as many of other countries do. No we aren't perfect...Oh wait...you said in another thread..anyone is perfect just the way they are therefore they are perfect. That makes us perfect.

The original poster of that remark about prosperity apologized for offending you. To start another thread to merely bring out much contention is inappropriate.

Patriotism to me is just showing the love of your country. There is patriotism in almost every country. To also state that would be against my religion is absolutly idiotic.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Could one say that true patriotism is the recognition that your country/nation has problems, yet you still strive to see the good in it, and continually improve it?

[pam]

If this is not a slander on America, why are the quotes you use that state patriotism is vile all about America? And if any consolation...if the quotes stated England, China, Russia, Brazil I would still be outraged.

Yes YMR...that would be a good definition.

I just think it outright nonsense to state that patriotism is vile and an abomination. As I stated earlier. I LOVE my country with all it's faults. I've never said we are perfect. We have our share of problems just like everyone else.

Let's not confuse patriotism with nationalism. Huge difference there.

[Brenton]

If this is not a slander on America, why are the quotes you use that state patriotism is vile all about America?

Americans tend to be a lot more patriotic than other countries, simple.

I just think it outright nonsense to state that patriotism is vile and an abomination. As I stated earlier. I LOVE my country with all it's faults. I've never said we are perfect. We have our share of problems just like everyone else.

Which means you aren't actually patriotic. Patriotism is akin to saying your country is as perfect as Jesus. If you can see the imperfection in your country as in others, then you just arent patriotic, you're probably nationalist, or not even that - you just love your home!
There's a difference between blind love (patriotism) and actually loving your country for what it is and what all of its people stand for.

Patriotism is vile because TRUE patriotism (seeing no faults in your own country, and basically thinking it is perfect in every way - see where im getting at) totally disregards every other country.
and thats why the us government (not necesarily all the people) - the current ruling class, has no trouble bombing and killing innocent citizens, because they see them as second class.
Profit over people,
divide and conquer - thats what theyre like.

Let's not confuse patriotism with nationalism. Huge difference there.

Well you're kind of getting the idea.

Could one say that true patriotism is the recognition that your country/nation has problems, yet you still strive to see the good in it, and continually improve it?

You need to think of a different word to put next to true, because patriotism can never be true.

The original poster of that remark about prosperity apologized for offending you.

I'm not actually posting it in reference to the person who said it, it doesnt matter who said it, its the statement that im bringing to light.

[pam]

Your definition and mine of patriotism obviously are never going to agree. My definition falls in line with how 4 different dictionary definitions define.

Love of one's country and the willingness to fight and defend it.

Doesn't qualify it by saying anything about thinking a country is perfect or seeing the imperfections.

I'm done.

[OneEternalSonata]

I think patriotism is a good and wholesome thing, in its "Christlike" form. To me, the kind of patriotism you seem to be speaking of is similar to the bad connotation that calling someone "religious" can have. Basically, when it is a hollow "going through the motions." In all proper prudence, to see in one's country that which is good, and to be grateful for it is absolutely a noble attribute.

I personally am patriotic through a great love of America which is founded upon my gratitude for all that God has done here. I defend those blessings. I am not saying I am better than anyone else, in fact, it only serves to increase my love for my fellow man.

[Brenton]

Originally Posted by pam

Your definition and mine of patriotism obviously are never going to agree. My definition falls in line with how 4 different dictionary definitions define.

Love of one's country and the willingness to fight and defend it.

Doesn't qualify it by saying anything about thinking a country is perfect or seeing the imperfections.

I'm done.

We aren't discussing your definition of patriotism, or the common dictionary definiton - because most people dont align with the dictionary meaning of it.
The whole point of this topic is to discuss single minded, chauvanist, nationalist fervorous patriotism - which completely aligns with saying such as "my country is the best thisandthat".