Patriotism

[rastler000]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Quotes from Osama Bin Laden: (Just trying to keep the lie going, Brenton)


"Hostility toward America is a religious duty, and we hope to be rewarded for it by God . . . . I am confident that Muslims will be able to end the legend of the so-called superpower that is America. Time Magazine

"The pieces of the bodies of infidels were flying like dust particles. If you would have seen it with your own eyes, you would have been very pleased, and your heart would have been filled with joy." -- At the wedding of his son in southern Kandahar about the 17 sailors who died suicide bombing of the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen

"Every American man is an enemy to us." -- Independent.

" . . . It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities." -- May 1998

"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson." Feb. 1998 - Bin Laden edict

The fact that you seem so "scared" of OBL from my POV means he has won. He dictates what we do by us being scared of him. All he has to do is "say something" and we jump through hoops.

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by rastler000

I am a huge fan for what Bush did in the days after 9/11. I am a huge fan of what originally went down in Afganistan. Heck, I was even cool with taking Saddam out. But after that it has been a mess.

Does saying this make me unpatriotic? If so then my dad, 30 years in the military, two tours in Vietnam, to this day helping recruit kids, supporting the troops with money and time, and a lot more than that, is also not a Patriot. Because my views are similar to his.

Rastler....when I have called you un-Patriotic???? And for the record, me too. I think Iraq has been a mess....better now, but an unnecesarily prolonged mess. Even if you opposed the war from the beginning I would not accuse you of being unpatriotic. So where do we disagree?

I am defending the way Bush's speech is twisted by those with an ax to grind. I think we can desent and be honest and be Patriotic, don't you?

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by rastler000

The fact that you seem so "scared" of OBL from my POV means he has won. He dictates what we do by us being scared of him. All he has to do is "say something" and we jump through hoops.

Not scared......just realistic. It's not him I fear, It's his ideology.

[rastler000]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Rastler....when I have called you un-Patriotic???? And for the record, me too. I think Iraq has been a mess....better now, but an unnecesarily prolonged mess. Even if you opposed the war from the beginning I would not accuse you of being unpatriotic. So where do we disagree?

I am defending the way Bush's speech is twisted by those with an ax to grind. I think we can desent and be honest and be Patriotic, don't you?

I agree. I think your context tended to suggest others were not patriotic just because they didn't agree with a speach right after 9/11 is all. One of those flaws of communicating on disucssion boards I guess.

Were good?

[Brenton]

Terrorism is a big lie. An enemy image to "keep us together".
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Please explain. From my point of view, 9/11 did in fact happen, and it was in fact an act of terrorism.

Ofcourse it happened, but the lie is the circumstances of the fact (for example: many of the supposed hijackers are still alive). The other lie of the of the circumstance is that terrorism is a big danger to the world. The US terrorist list has over 1 million people on it now.
And "terrorist" is used by the govt for any who doesnt stick to the status quo, basically.

Just let me say this. The North American Air Space Command failed 4 times on 9/11, they'd had full accuracy beforehand. It's just a little too strange that they didn't get fighter jets up in the air after the first tower was hit, or even after the second. It took about 80 or so minutes for NORAD to respond, its just unheard of, the only logical thing is that they were deliberately confused.

"We will never forget, what a government did to its own people, to start a war."
I just cannot believe that people dont see this, okay -- you have your right to say whatever you think, but I do too.
We are given to believe that some guy in a cave, had NORAD stand down, the best air security in the world.

Quotes from Osama Bin Laden:

This is just bull. THINK!
The Bush family has had great ties with the Bin Laden family.
Just months before 9/11 the cia was ordered to back off investigations on the bin laden family ... HELLO!?!

It's not him I fear, It's his ideology.

The problem is, most of the "muslim hate" towards the west (which is very much not mainstream in muslim society, let me assure you) stems from the fact that the us insists on presence in middle eastern countries, and thats because the us is building an empire, and getting cheaper resources from it -- whether its the world bank insisting on the privatisation of foreign infrastructure to sell it of to corporations in us for example, they have bases literally everywhere -- only recently did the US get out of iceland, which is now falling apart economically in some major part due to american corporations.

It's interesting to note that the Bush family came from the oil business.
If this is too political for this board (because of the NFP), then sorry.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

I was correcting Elphaba's statement.

Then you should have addressed it to me, not to the board in general. We can't read minds, and there was no way CC could have known you were correcting me. I didn't even know it until you just said so.

Speaking of corrections, Bush has also said: "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror."

The point being, his is a common, and juvenile, theme of "with us or against us," and regardless of how he words it, Bush's use of this theme is simplistic and insulting. I am not a member of Bush's "us," and I am not a terrorist.

It is not Bush's place to define who, or what, I am.

Elphaba

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Then you should have addressed it to me, not to the board in general. We can't read minds, and there was no way CC could have known you were correcting me. I didn't even know it until you just said so.

Speaking of corrections, Bush has also said: "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror."

The point being, his is a common, and juvenile, theme of "with us or against us," and regardless of how he words it, Bush's use of this theme is simplistic and insulting. I am not a member of Bush's "us," and I am not a terrorist.

It is not Bush's place to define who, or what, I am.

Elphaba

Elphaba,

I stand corrected, in the future I will direct my comments appropriately and as for your correction, it still wasn't a comment aimed at you or any US citizen, it was directed to other nations.The context of the speech, that I quoted, is directed at rogue nations that aid and comfort terrorists. It was gived 12 days after a brutal attack. The comments were not directed at you.......and that is my point. The visceral hatred some feel toward Bush causes them to believe things that are not true and your characterization of his comments made in a speech.....are not factual. Bush wasn't defining you, he was issuing a warning to state sponsers of terrorism. I am not saying you are any of these,..... but,you can dislike Bush or hate him if you need to, be a flaming liberal or just a staunch anti-war person regardless of the cause and still be honest. The comments hurled at Bush and the twisting of his comments are intellectually dishonest. One can argue there position effectively, without resorting to cliched commentary and anti-Bush talking points.

[rameumptom]

I think patriotism has to go beyond love of country. In my view, that is what's called Nationalism, which is not a good thing.

Patriotism is devotion to the principles of the Constitution, which allows us the blessings of this nation.

Capt Moroni's reasons for patriotism of his nation went beyond love of country. It was a plea for freedom and defense of family and religion. When our nation forgets that and becomes nationalistic, as is Russia, then we will only be bullies and Gadianton Robbers, like are found in many nations in history.

[a-train]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

The context of the speech, that I quoted, is directed at rogue nations that aid and comfort terrorists. It was gived 12 days after a brutal attack. The comments were not directed at you.......and that is my point.

But here lies the problem. We have an American leadership that has endorsed an unapologetic bully foreign policy. It openly characterizes nations as "rogue" and uses threats of sanctions, invasion, and warfare to promote action. Such a policy has been long proven to be a path to war and sorrow.

The process also breeds division among the American populace itself, while certain groups paint those who do not endorse such a policy as "soft on terror", or "weak on foreign policy", or even "unpatriotic". In the most nasty examples, those who do not buy this policy are considered as sympathizers of terrorists or even familial with their cause.

-a-train

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by a-train

But here lies the problem. We have an American leadership that has endorsed an unapologetic bully foreign policy. It openly characterizes nations as "rogue" and uses threats of sanctions, invasion, and warfare to promote action. Such a policy has been long proven to be a path to war and sorrow.

The process also breeds division among the American populace itself, while certain groups paint those who do not endorse such a policy as "soft on terror", or "weak on foreign policy", or even "unpatriotic". In the most nasty examples, those who do not buy this policy are considered as sympathizers of terrorists or even familial with their cause.

-a-train

We have characterized nations as rogue or as state sponsers of terrorism long before Bush and we were gearing up for a military response to 911. Previous administrations had been soft spoken and done nothing with regard to the growing terrorist threat. A little tough talk aimed at nations that encourage terroristic aggressions is way over due.A policy of doing nothing will yield results such as 911 and the attack on the Cole. Th threat of terrorism is real and should be dealt with as aggressively as possible and the nations labeled by past and present administrations should be warned of impending consequences if corrective actions aren't taken. The argument over patriotic or unpatriotic is distasteful to me and is a lot of hype and political posturing on both sides of the aisle. Burning the President of the United States in effigy and some of the ridiculous slanders that are presented by so-called anti-war groups are nothing more than an attempt to divide our country. Take a hard look at some of protest groups and see who they really are and what they really represent.....