Please help me - having more children

[applepansy]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Well, why would I even need to ask God if women think just like men do?

Ok I'll clarify. . .If you want to know HOW women think ask God. Likewise, if women want to know HOW men think again, ask God. He made us.

Or watch this: YouTube - Mark Gungor - Men's Brain Women's Brain - EXTENDED complements of piper



applepansy

[applepansy]

Originally Posted by Maureen

I'm guessing "age 20" is a typo.

M.

Yes, thank you.. . I fixed it.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by mightynancy

Well, for understanding women so well, you sure couldn't tell when this one was joking with you. That's what the wink at the end was for. Just sayin'.

I never said I understood women "well", I think I just have a little more insight then your average nuclear family Mormon boy.

[PeterVenkman]

My advice for those seeking guidance on "how women think" and "how men think" is to read a book called "Gender Trouble" by Judith Butler.

Amazon.com: Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity (Routledge Classics): Judith Butler: Books

Bodies that Matter is also a good one:

Amazon.com: Bodies That Matter: On the Discursive Limits of Sex: Judith P. Butler: Books

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Being new here I had no idea whether you were a man or a women, and naturally assumed since by your nick you were male.

Easy mistake. Seems only natural to think of men as "Wingnuts".

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by Moksha

Easy mistake. Seems only natural to think of men as "Wingnuts".

Exactly!

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Since it is the responsibility of the wife to bear and nurture children it is ultimately her responsibility in this manner, you should honor her wishes and give her as many children as she deems fit.

"Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. 'Children are an heritage of the Lord' (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations...

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners" (The Family: A Proclamation to the World, emphasis added).

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

That is a incorrect statement and not what the Lord or the brethren would tell him.

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

And I disagree with you. I believe this is a stewardship issue, with the wife holding stewardship in this matter.

"If you are married, you and your spouse should discuss your sacred responsibility to bring children into the world and nurture them in righteousness. As you do so, consider the sanctity and meaning of life. Ponder the joy that comes when children are in the home. Consider the eternal blessings that come from having a good posterity. With a testimony of these principles, you and your spouse will be prepared to prayerfully decide how many children to have and when to have them. Such decisions are between the two of you and the Lord" (True to the Faith, Birth Control).

"Of course we believe in children. The Lord has told us to multiply and replenish the earth that we might have joy in our posterity, and there is no greater joy than the joy that comes of happy children in good families. But he did not designate the number, nor has the Church. That is a sacred matter left to the couple and the Lord" (President Gordon B. Hinckley, Jan 29, 1984, emphasis added).

Every reference I can find states that this decision is between the couple and the Lord. I would love for you to show me anything that states that the woman has the right to ignore her husband's feelings in making this decision.

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Men are tough, they'll be fine. Let's cut to the chase here... Most men that consider having more children a burden are being prideful selfish children. It's usually because the kids take away the attentions of his wife and they stop him from spending money on the things HE wants, that he wants to stop.

Yes, a man would only say no to children for selfish reasons. He would never, ever, ever even dream of saying he didn't want more children because he wasn't sure he had the emotional capacity to handle more children, or because he didn't see how he could support another child on his $30,000 annual salary, or because his health insurance cut benefits and increased premiums, or because he feels that 7 kids in his three bedroom home is a bit beyond reasonable.

yes, let's cut to the chase...people tend to interpret the world through the biased lenses of their own view and thought processes. So what exactly are you saying here?

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Obviously they should pray together over the matter. But the ultimate decision comes down to the wife in this matter, just as many other decisions are ultimately in the husband's realm of stewardship.

Really! You mean there are areas in which I, as a husband, have the authority to completely disregard my wife's wishes and concerns and make whatever decision I think is best? Please do share what these areas are.

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

No one is getting slapped into submission. Just as wives gently submit to their husbands in most matters, husbands, after making their case for no more children, should gently submit to their wives in this matter.

I think the reaction to my perspective is a matter of pride to men used to being in position of authority at church and home.

'gently submit to their husbands?' What does that even mean? How many married men here have really seen their wives 'gently submit?'

What if we took a lesson from the governing bodies of the Church? What if we only made decisions when, as the Quorum of the Twelve, we had unanimous consent? What if we led by persuasion, long-suffering, meekness, and love unfeigned? What if we led with pure knowledge, which would enlarge our souls, without hypocrisy and without guile? Perhaps that's just my novel, radical idea (see D&C 121:40-42).

Originally Posted by SisterofJared

I think much fasting and prayer should enter the picture, and they should do nothing until they are unified in their decision. However, having said that, if no mutual decision is arrived at after a reasonably lengthy period of time, then I agree that it should be the women's decision. Kristoffer is right: She is the one who bears and cares for the babies. For many women, bearing children, nursing them, raising them is a HUGE part of their identiy... their purpose in life..even of their sexuality. A woman is who baby hungry ought not to be involuntarily turned into a sperm receptacle, which is how it will feel to a woman who is denied the opportunity to have a baby she is yearning for.

Women generally know when they are "done." Until that time, they often feel incomplete.

As to the idea that if both don't say yes, it's a no.... oh, unfair. That would give power to the person who is saying no all the time. In a deadlock, the decision should go to the person who actually would bear the children.... And if the Lord doesn't want them to have another baby, they won't. He's the best decision maker!

Sister of Jared

Since when was raising children not a part of a man's identity? As for designating the woman as 'the one who would bear the children,' I again reiterate that husband and wives--mothers and fathers--are to share these responsibilities equally, and will be held equally accountable. If a man is going to be held accountable for the raising of his children, he has every right to have input into how many children he is going to raise.

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Thank you so much for this! That was the next point I was going to make but I think it has more impact coming from a female perspective. I was raised by women (aunts, grandma) so a believe I have a little more insight into female thinking then most men here.

Doubtful. In fact, I've seen nothing you've said anywhere on this site that indicates you have any more insight into a woman's thinking than the average man. I've had friends who were in families of all males that had more intuition into a woman's thinking than girls who grew up with all sisters.

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

So I'm supposed to believe that men and women think the same and perceive the world in the same way?

I guess all those books trying to explain to men how women think and to women how men think are completely pointless.

1) you missed the joke
2) No, those books aren't pointless, but they aren't timeless. Each generation develops new norms of gender communication, and the rate of change has been dramatically increased since the Women's Rights movement got underway. So whether or not a given book is meaningful has more to do with when it was written and to what generation you're applying the knowledge.

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Ok, I'm officially done with this topic. I said my peace listened to others, started taking things lightly, then the really militant women showed up to rehash the topic and berate me. Girls, take a note out of Sister of Jared's warbook, and know when to let something die.

No one berated you. And none of the militant women have gotten involved in this thread. Quite the contrary, the women here, into whose thinking you claim to have such good insight, have expressed that they think a woman should have the support of her husband when she wants another child. Let me translate that for you: women like to make mutual agreements with their husbands; they interpret that as intimacy.

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

I never said I understood women "well", I think I just have a little more insight then your average nuclear family Mormon boy.

Fail!

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by MarginOfError

"Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. 'Children are an heritage of the Lord' (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations...

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners" (The Family: A Proclamation to the World, emphasis added).





"If you are married, you and your spouse should discuss your sacred responsibility to bring children into the world and nurture them in righteousness. As you do so, consider the sanctity and meaning of life. Ponder the joy that comes when children are in the home. Consider the eternal blessings that come from having a good posterity. With a testimony of these principles, you and your spouse will be prepared to prayerfully decide how many children to have and when to have them. Such decisions are between the two of you and the Lord" (True to the Faith, Birth Control).

"Of course we believe in children. The Lord has told us to multiply and replenish the earth that we might have joy in our posterity, and there is no greater joy than the joy that comes of happy children in good families. But he did not designate the number, nor has the Church. That is a sacred matter left to the couple and the Lord" (President Gordon B. Hinckley, Jan 29, 1984, emphasis added).

Every reference I can find states that this decision is between the couple and the Lord. I would love for you to show me anything that states that the woman has the right to ignore her husband's feelings in making this decision.



Yes, a man would only say no to children for selfish reasons. He would never, ever, ever even dream of saying he didn't want more children because he wasn't sure he had the emotional capacity to handle more children, or because he didn't see how he could support another child on his $30,000 annual salary, or because his health insurance cut benefits and increased premiums, or because he feels that 7 kids in his three bedroom home is a bit beyond reasonable.

yes, let's cut to the chase...people tend to interpret the world through the biased lenses of their own view and thought processes. So what exactly are you saying here?



Really! You mean there are areas in which I, as a husband, have the authority to completely disregard my wife's wishes and concerns and make whatever decision I think is best? Please do share what these areas are.



'gently submit to their husbands?' What does that even mean? How many married men here have really seen their wives 'gently submit?'

What if we took a lesson from the governing bodies of the Church? What if we only made decisions when, as the Quorum of the Twelve, we had unanimous consent? What if we led by persuasion, long-suffering, meekness, and love unfeigned? What if we led with pure knowledge, which would enlarge our souls, without hypocrisy and without guile? Perhaps that's just my novel, radical idea (see D&C 121:40-42).



Since when was raising children not a part of a man's identity? As for designating the woman as 'the one who would bear the children,' I again reiterate that husband and wives--mothers and fathers--are to share these responsibilities equally, and will be held equally accountable. If a man is going to be held accountable for the raising of his children, he has every right to have input into how many children he is going to raise.



Doubtful. In fact, I've seen nothing you've said anywhere on this site that indicates you have any more insight into a woman's thinking than the average man. I've had friends who were in families of all males that had more intuition into a woman's thinking than girls who grew up with all sisters.



1) you missed the joke
2) No, those books aren't pointless, but they aren't timeless. Each generation develops new norms of gender communication, and the rate of change has been dramatically increased since the Women's Rights movement got underway. So whether or not a given book is meaningful has more to do with when it was written and to what generation you're applying the knowledge.



No one berated you. And none of the militant women have gotten involved in this thread. Quite the contrary, the women here, into whose thinking you claim to have such good insight, have expressed that they think a woman should have the support of her husband when she wants another child. Let me translate that for you: women like to make mutual agreements with their husbands; they interpret that as intimacy.



Fail!

[FunkyTown]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Kristoffer? For a guy who a dozen posts ago said he was done with this thread, you seem to have a very big case of 'Last worditis'. If you honestly are done, who cares what other people think? There are many cases of debates I've had where people have responded to my posts and I haven't written back. Not because I thought they were right, but because I thought the discussion had reached a bad spot. Just... Let it die.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by FunkyTown

Kristoffer? For a guy who a dozen posts ago said he was done with this thread, you seem to have a very big case of 'Last worditis'. If you honestly are done, who cares what other people think? There are many cases of debates I've had where people have responded to my posts and I haven't written back. Not because I thought they were right, but because I thought the discussion had reached a bad spot. Just... Let it die.