FLDS aren't welfare cheats after all.

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

Strange we never hear of this in reference to how much the government has to pay for HIV due to people engaging in homosexuality and IV drug use. At least the FLDS are following God's commandments, and the teachings of LDS leaders, and trying to bring spirits into the world.

Was there some new revelation that I don't know about? I'm pretty sure God commanded monogamy to bring spirits into the world. I'm also pretty sure that He intended for us to make responsible decisions regarding child bearing.

The mainstream LDS in many cases could learn a thing or two fromt he FLDS. Maybe then we wouldn't be seeing shrinkage of the Church in so many places around the world.

Yes, we need more LDS people to live in poverty because they can't keep it in their pants. We need more LDS people to narrow-mindedly focus on one or two commandments at the expense of all reason. We need more LDS people to stop applying logic to their lives. That will solve the world's problems!

Also, while technically polygamy is not legal in the USA sharing a male and having his children is not illegal, so in essence the wives and children are not breaking any laws. I am remended of a case in Utah where a cop became a polygamist and took a second wife. His boss told him that if he would not call the second wife a "wife" there would be no trouble but he refused on principle and was fired. I guess it's pretty silly that any guy on these boards could take a mistress in addition to his wife (except in Texas where you can't technically have two women under the same roof that you are having sex with) and as long as he called the second woman his mistress the law can't touch him.

And it was for this reason that I didn't say that they committed welfare fraud. You might see that I rejected your statement that they had done no wrong, when in fact, they have, at least on a moral level (even by today's society's standards) if not a legal one.

You just know in the near future some kooky DA will go after a man with more than one wife and it'll reach the supreme court on appeal and the court will strike down laws against polygamy. I wouldn't doubt this wil come soon and since Obama will appoint justices who support gay marriage these new liberal justices might team up with the more conservative libertarians like Scalia and Thomas and gut these laws.

If you truly believe this I suspect you voted for Obama.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by MarginOfError

So because they engage in illegal marriage practices and have far more children than they have resources to support, there must be no wrongdoing in their claims for government assistance? Oh, except that they're breaking the law in a manner that forces them to rely on government assistance.

"...rely on government assistance"????

Did you read the article????

Apparently not.

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

"...rely on government assistance"????

Did you read the article????

Apparently not.

Let's take a look at what I "didn't read"

The most widely used poverty-related programs are food stamps and Medicaid, particularly for pregnant women and newborn care. With Colorado City and Centennial Park combined, 126 children were enrolled in KidsCare, a low-cost health insurance program.

Another 3,416 people received some form of Medicaid coverage, said Christine Goldberg, spokeswoman for the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System.

On the Utah side, the most widely used Medicaid program covers newborns. Through August of this year, there was an average of 131 such cases of ongoing coverage in Hildale. In August, other Medicaid programs and the state Children's Health Insurance Program had 324 open cases in the city.

The food stamp program bases allotments on household size, income and available financial resources. Nationwide, half of food stamp recipients are children and 61 percent live in single-parent families, according to the USDA's Food & Nutrition Service.

In Hildale there were an average of 75 cases a month in 2007-08, while Colorado City averaged 207 food stamp cases between March 2007 and March 2008.

A comparison of Colorado City's zip code data with two other Arizona communities with similar populations found household case counts to be about the same, according to the Arizona Department of Economic Security.

But family sizes skew individual counts.

"The number of recipients in Colorado City tends to be higher because families in that area tend to be larger," said Liz Barker Alvarez, department spokeswoman.

Based on number of recipients, 44 percent of Colorado City residents received food stamps -- not 78 percent, as a guide put together by the Utah Attorney General's Office states. Arizona provided $1.5 million in food stamps to area residents in 2006 and 2007.

Utah did not provide information about recipient numbers. But the average monthly food stamp benefit in Hildale is $829, compared with the typical monthly grant of $250 in Washington County.

Take note, the household case counts are similar, but the family sizes are so much larger that the average household in the polygamous community puts more strain on the system than the average household elsewhere. The raw number of recipients in the polygamous areas is higher.

The cases of medicaid and prenatal healthcare are disproportionately large in polygamous communities. The birth rate per 1,000 women in Washington County, Utah is 90.7 compared to a national average of 96.5 compared to the national average of 66.0 (March. of Dimes). Washington County is home to St. George, which has a disproportionately elderly population, ergo, a lower birth rate. So to jack the birthrate up that high requires that somewhere in the county is a disproportionately high birth rate. Want to guess where?

And here's the really damning statistic. In Hildale, Washington County, Utah, the average monthly food benefit is $829. Averaged over all of Washington County, the monthly benefit is only $250.

Now let me repeat what I said earlier: I do not think that they have committed welfare fraud. I believe these people truly are poor. But they are living in poverty because the group they affiliate with encourages illegal and immoral behaviors that have put them in a position where they are reliant on welfare.

Is there anything else you think I'm not reading?

[MorningStar]

What? They're not following God's commandments. What are you talking about??? Most of them are having children while technically commiting adultery.

[a-train]

It's not our place to judge those people.

-a-train

[MorningStar]

It's our right as tax payers to object to supporting people who require welfare due to their illegal activities.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by MarginOfError

Let's take a look at what I "didn't read"



Take note, the household case counts are similar, but the family sizes are so much larger that the average household in the polygamous community puts more strain on the system than the average household elsewhere. The raw number of recipients in the polygamous areas is higher.

The cases of medicaid and prenatal healthcare are disproportionately large in polygamous communities. The birth rate per 1,000 women in Washington County, Utah is 90.7 compared to a national average of 96.5 compared to the national average of 66.0 (March. of Dimes). Washington County is home to St. George, which has a disproportionately elderly population, ergo, a lower birth rate. So to jack the birthrate up that high requires that somewhere in the county is a disproportionately high birth rate. Want to guess where?

And here's the really damning statistic. In Hildale, Washington County, Utah, the average monthly food benefit is $829. Averaged over all of Washington County, the monthly benefit is only $250.

Now let me repeat what I said earlier: I do not think that they have committed welfare fraud. I believe these people truly are poor. But they are living in poverty because the group they affiliate with encourages illegal and immoral behaviors that have put them in a position where they are reliant on welfare.

Is there anything else you think I'm not reading?

75 a month and 209 over a year-long period for Food Stamps. Do you realize how many folks live in CC? Do your think any of the regular folks or the Centennial Park folks might be part of the statistics also?
The reason they live in poverty is because they are surrounded by self-righteous bigots who refuse to do business the the "plygs". They do fine outside of the ever so holy state of Utah and Northern Arizona (hmmm... who is the dominant culture there?)
Here's a concept Utah... Get of your self-righteous pedestals and hire these people for the wonderful construction and other work they do.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by MorningStar

It's our right as tax payers to object to supporting people who require welfare due to their illegal activities.

I demand the LDS church reimburse the US taxpayers for the almost 20 years of litigation had over their illegal activities in the late 1800's then.

[MarginOfError]

[QUOTE=KristofferUmfrey;311693]75 a month and 209 over a year-long period for Food Stamps. Do you realize how many folks live in CC? Do your think any of the regular folks or the Centennial Park folks might be part of the statistics also?[\QUOTE]

The reason they live in poverty is because they are surrounded by self-righteous bigots who refuse to do business the the "plygs". They do fine outside of the ever so holy state of Utah and Northern Arizona (hmmm... who is the dominant culture there?)
Here's a concept Utah... Get of your self-righteous pedestals and hire these people for the wonderful construction and other work they do.

Okay, let's put those two together. 75 cases a month in Hildale at an average cost of $829, when the average food stamp cost in Washington County is $250. The average cost in Hildale costs over $500 more than the average case in Washington County. Why is it so much more expensive...because the household size is so much bigger.

And yes, I do comprehend the idea that not every case is a polygamist family. I have a pretty good feel for how statistics work. I would caution you not to try and outflank me with statistics.

The reason they live in poverty is because they are surrounded by self-righteous bigots who refuse to do business the the "plygs". They do fine outside of the ever so holy state of Utah and Northern Arizona (hmmm... who is the dominant culture there?)
Here's a concept Utah... Get of your self-righteous pedestals and hire these people for the wonderful construction and other work they do.

ha ha...holy state of Utah...that's funny.

Let me state this again, in case you're not catching on to what I'm saying. I have nothing against these people applying for welfare. I'm not about to let families starve. But to say that there is no wrong-doing on their part is simply false. Either they are living polygamous marriages--which is illegal--or they are encouraging men to have multiple families out of wedlock--which our society at large consider immoral (not to mention the LDS Church). No, they aren't committing welfare fraud...that doesn't automatically mean they're making wise decisions.

[KristofferUmfrey]

[QUOTE=MarginOfError;311702]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

75 a month and 209 over a year-long period for Food Stamps. Do you realize how many folks live in CC? Do your think any of the regular folks or the Centennial Park folks might be part of the statistics also?[\QUOTE]

Okay, let's put those two together. 75 cases a month in Hildale at an average cost of $829, when the average food stamp cost in Washington County is $250. The average cost in Hildale costs over $500 more than the average case in Washington County. Why is it so much more expensive...because the household size is so much bigger.

And yes, I do comprehend the idea that not every case is a polygamist family. I have a pretty good feel for how statistics work. I would caution you not to try and outflank me with statistics.



ha ha...holy state of Utah...that's funny.

Let me state this again, in case you're not catching on to what I'm saying. I have nothing against these people applying for welfare. I'm not about to let families starve. But to say that there is no wrong-doing on their part is simply false. Either they are living polygamous marriages--which is illegal--or they are encouraging men to have multiple families out of wedlock--which our society at large consider immoral (not to mention the LDS Church). No, they aren't committing welfare fraud...that doesn't automatically mean they're making wise decisions.

Modern American society considers it immoral. Yeah, modern American society is a great yardstick for measuring morality.

(I'll refrain from comment about the LDS church considering it immoral.)