FLDS aren't welfare cheats after all.

[Fiannan]

[quote=pam;312817]

There are Mormon polygamists? Last I heard those practicing polygamy were excommunicated.

If only the LDS Church has a copyright on the name "Mormon" then are we willing to grant the Protestand fundamentalists their wish and anyone who believes in the Book of Mormon stop calling themselves "Christians"?

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

And this is a problem why?

Elphaba

Well, the problem is that if we are willing to give food stamps (a form of welfare to the agricultural industry that mid-western Republicans have traditionally supported) then we have to grant people down on their luck, married LDS college students with families, crack mommas and polygamists alike the right to get them.

As for any morality involved, if the US government is willing to bail out Fortune 500 industries then we might as well not gripe when people of any sort get food stamps. At least nobody on food stamps is driving to the government to ask for aid in custom-mde Mercedes, BMWs, or private helicopters.

On the link posted by Just_A_Guy I have to say that I really believe Larry Flint is trying to mock the government by asking for government aid to the porn industry. If so he deserves some applause for ironic political satire.

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

MarginOfError, the Prophet Nathan pointed out to David that God had given him 6 wives (opps, God gave him this blessing) and then David had to go and arrange the death of an innocent man to get his wife. So the sin was not polygamy if God was the author of the blessing. The reason for Nathan's analogy of someone rich and then taking something from someone that didn't have as much was intended to illustrate David's selfish act. Again, polygamy was never the question.

Was this not a polygamous marriage that was not sanctioned by God. That there is very relevant.

And again, for you to bring up our church to condemn these people would be akin to condemning them for eating pork since eating pork is considered a transgression by orthodox Jews. These polygamists are not Jews so a rabbi would have no greater authority to them than Thomas Monson. As for saying it's immoral based on the law you have to remember that laws can change. Pornography used to be illegal and now it's widespread and legal in the USA. Yet in China it's illegal. So because it's legal in the USA is it moral? Same with polygamy. Polygamy is legal in many nations so does that make geography the most important factor in whether something is moral or not? God is no respector of persons or governments. Polygamists in the USA feel that the teachings of God promoted by Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, John Taylor, etc. are still valid and should take a superior position in people's lives than the laws of a flawed state.

Morality is a fluid construct that changes over time and, yes, geography. Polygamists in the USA are certainly free to believe that certain teachings should take a superior position than the laws of the state. In doing so, however, they should be prepared to accept the consequences that the state imposes on them. There has been plenty of evidence to show that it won't change, the law suits defending the right to religious practices that are contrary to state law have been exhausted, and it won't change. They're stuck in a position where what they do is either illegal or it is immoral. You can't talk your way out of that, and you'll not find any General Authority to tell you differently.

Oh, and Elphaba, maybe what SisterofJared is refering to is that if a man has two wives -- one with 6 kids and the other with 4 then they can qualify for food stamps per household but he can't be inluded as one of the members of both households. So the food stamp office would grant them assistance based on one household with a husband, wife and 6 kids while the other household would have to apply as a "single" mother with 4 kids.

Then the father should be paying child support to all of the families as well.

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by MarginOfError

Was this not a polygamous marriage that was not sanctioned by God. That there is very relevant.

That is never even hinted at in the Bible. And since the 10 Commandments presupposes polygamy (in Jewish teaching a man was not to covet his neighbor's wife but a single woman could covet her neighbor's husband since it was possible for her to also be married to him).

As for the point about Jacob in the Book of Mormon he was dealing with excesses, not polygamy itself. Having hundreds of wives and concubines was considered unfair to the wives and concubines as they were more objects rather than partners. Perhaps this is a reason Islam limits a man to just 4 wives and he is to treat them all equally.

Morality is a fluid construct that changes over time and, yes, geography. Polygamists in the USA are certainly free to believe that certain teachings should take a superior position than the laws of the state. In doing so, however, they should be prepared to accept the consequences that the state imposes on them. There has been plenty of evidence to show that it won't change, the law suits defending the right to religious practices that are contrary to state law have been exhausted, and it won't change. They're stuck in a position where what they do is either illegal or it is immoral. You can't talk your way out of that, and you'll not find any General Authority to tell you differently.

Again, you can't apply our Church's teachings to these people any more than a Lutheran has to listen to what the Pope says.

If the Bible does not call polygamy immoral then it cannot be seen as immoral. Perhaps this is akin to animal sacrifice. I would certainly not call ritual sacrifice by Muslims immoral since for me to do so would pit me against the teachings of the Old Testament and God. Does my religion say it is wrong? Yes, if done for religious reasons. Is ritual sacrifice illegal in some countries? Yes. Is a Muslim who then does the annual ritual slauther of animals immoral? No, but what he is doing is illegal in those European nations than ban it.

As for law, laws change. When the US Constitution was created homosexual sex was illegal in all 13 states. It remained that way up until recent times and only became legal with court rulings and some states making it legal. The same may well happen in regards to polygamy.

Oh, and morality is not a fluid concept. The Bible says that adultery and fornication are evil -- that will not change over time. Now if you happen to believe that something like public nudity might become more acceptable in the future that could occur but something like nudity is not in and of itself immoral. I mean if you could warp a bunch of sisters from a Relief Society meeting back to 1850 they'd be arrested for showing too much plesh in public as well as wearing provacative attire. Maybe in the future you might have a YA swim party where it would be acceptable to go topless for males and females. Those sorts of things fall into the category of social norms, not morality, and can change due to people's changing attitudes.

Then the father should be paying child support to all of the families as well.

Why if in every respect he is acting as a husband and father to all his families? Child support os for people who aren't in the immediate picture anymore.

[MorningStar]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

Are you suggesting that we yank welfare benefits from everyone who commits adultery (and their children as well)?

I wasn't addressing the welfare issue there. I'm talking about his comment that they are following God's commandments. Because they cannot be legally married in this country, their "marriages" are invalid and they are technically committing adultery. I don't think there was welfare fraud because they really are poor, but their lifestyle causes them to require welfare and I think it's wrong to expect the public to foot the bill for their decisions.

[Just_A_Guy]

Originally Posted by MorningStar

I wasn't addressing the welfare issue there. I'm talking about his comment that they are following God's commandments. Because they cannot be legally married in this country, their "marriages" are invalid and they are technically committing adultery. I don't think there was welfare fraud because they really are poor, but their lifestyle causes them to require welfare and I think it's wrong to expect the public to foot the bill for their decisions.

That sounds an awful lot like a "yes" to me.

[jimuk]

Oh dear, sometimes i feel it is the members of "the One true church" themselves that would frighten investigators away, no you do not have the right "as tax payers" to judge these people.

$1 or one thousand dollars a week in tax, gives you no rights as to judge these good people, or are they not good people.

Lets stop helping the starving peoples of Africa, they keep having children don't they, they cant afford to feed them, they live from day to day hoping that people will help to look after their children and themselves also.

My turn to judge now. How can you guys who profess to want to be like Jesus be so self righteous, do you go to church to be seen by others as the good guy, does it not matter that Heavenly father knows what you feel in your heart.

I don't care if anyone flames me, i couldn't care less, just leave these people alone to get on with their lives.

I would like to just ask this. Do any converts feel this way towards their fellow man.

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by jimuk

Oh dear, sometimes i feel it is the members of "the One true church" themselves that would frighten investigators away, no you do not have the right "as tax payers" to judge these people.

$1 or one thousand dollars a week in tax, gives you no rights as to judge these good people, or are they not good people.

Lets stop helping the starving peoples of Africa, they keep having children don't they, they cant afford to feed them, they live from day to day hoping that people will help to look after their children and themselves also.

My turn to judge now. How can you guys who profess to want to be like Jesus be so self righteous, do you go to church to be seen by others as the good guy, does it not matter that Heavenly father knows what you feel in your heart.

I don't care if anyone flames me, i couldn't care less, just leave these people alone to get on with their lives.

I would like to just ask this. Do any converts feel this way towards their fellow man.

Not sure who you're directing this at, but again, I have no problem giving them welfare. They need it. But they need it because they're living an irresponsible and immoral lifestyle. They've put themselves in the position of needing welfare support by their own choices. Do we give them the support they need? Yes. Do we praise them for it? No

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by MorningStar

I wasn't addressing the welfare issue there. I'm talking about his comment that they are following God's commandments. Because they cannot be legally married in this country, their "marriages" are invalid and they are technically committing adultery. I don't think there was welfare fraud because they really are poor, but their lifestyle causes them to require welfare and I think it's wrong to expect the public to foot the bill for their decisions.

Their lifestyle doesn't require welfare. Prejudice from holier-then-thou Mormon folks in Southern Utah keeps them from a lifestyle they enjoy in other parts of the country. Those in Vegas do very well. the folks in Texas were doing very well (maybe you missed that part of the article).
The fact is these folks are excellent workers who do fabulous work at whatever they put there hand to (which is one reason they were getting tons of government contracts)... and when not surrounded by bigots, they prosper.

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Their lifestyle doesn't require welfare. Prejudice from holier-then-thou Mormon folks in Southern Utah keeps them from a lifestyle they enjoy in other parts of the country. Those in Vegas do very well. the folks in Texas were doing very well (maybe you missed that part of the article).

I've driven through Colorado City many, many times. We hear on the news often concerning fathers that have left the FLDS Church that can't get work, or can't buy property or rent a house in CC. Who's prejudicial? I have several polygamous neighbors here in Salt Lake County who are doing fine, no prejudice seems to bother them here. So, who is it in Southern Utah that is prejudicial? I'm curious whom you mean.

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

The fact is these folks are excellent workers who do fabulous work at whatever they put there hand to (which is one reason they were getting tons of government contracts)... and when not surrounded by bigots, they prosper.

Like, Tom Green? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Green_(polygamist) r-i-g-h-t....