Canadian health care will kill you

[Maxel]

Originally Posted by Charlyc

...but about the young man clearing 50k I think you missed the point here. Sure his priorities are screwed but he is still uninsured and in that estimate of 40 mil those 'lefties' talk about. Plus there will always be irresponsible youth in all countries, that's why they are 'young', but countries that have a health system safety net can pick him up if the worst happens during his years of foolishness but in america he will most likely end up a bankrupt, and that assuming a hospital will actually fix both broken legs and arms completely after his car crash.

Ummm... So, a foolish man's wise neighbor should be legally forced to pay for the foolishness of the foolish?

By the way, I'd love to see a statistic of how many people with four broken limbs are refused health care in the U.S.A. I'm willing to wager that it's not very high.

Originally Posted by Charlyc

After this small 'discussion' here (with majority right wingers) I'm more convinced than before that what seems to be happening now in american culture is an almost obsession with the individual and individual rights above any government or community agreements,

Darn straight! That idea of individual rights is the entire basis of the Constitution- a document that the LDS Church officially recognizes as a document divinely inspired by God.

Originally Posted by Charlyc

So then this 'individualism' above all trumps any community safety net and, in my book, will end up destroying any national unity.

Your opinion doesn't hold water in reality. That very idea of the rights of the individual- the idea of the right of men to live their lives without overt government intrusion- is a major ideology that the Founding Fathers of America rallied behind, an ideology that fueled the Revolutionary War, and an ideology that created the national unity that fed the fire of the American's righteous indignation.

You also might be interested in studying Ayn Rand's economic theories, and notice how the 'virtue of selfishness' (as she calls it) helps fuel scientific and industrial progress and, therefore, the quality of living for everyone. You might then be well-benefited by comparing Rand's theories against the industrial history of America (and the world), and notice that every major leap forward in science and any industry has been wrought by the private enterpriser (the one who embodies the ideology of 'individual rights').

Originally Posted by Charlyc

But then again that's what the prophesies say about the US, right? after wasting its youth and treasure on foreign wars it will then fall apart?

Which prophesies are those?

[Just_A_Guy]

Originally Posted by Charlyc

Plus there will always be irresponsible youth in all countries, that's why they are 'young', but countries that have a health system safety net can pick him up if the worst happens during his years of foolishness but in america he will most likely end up a bankrupt . . .

Hmm. Based on your understanding of American law, Charlyc:

a) What does it mean to be "bankrupt"?
b) What happens to a person who is legally declared "bankrupt"?

[bytor2112]

It's a tough question, to be fair. I believe the universal health care is important, but I have yet to see a system that was both:

My mom recently had major back surgery....no health insurance. She is 63 and has had some health problem or another most of her life and either couldn't get health insurance or couldn't (or wouldn't) pay for it. The back surgery, medication and physical therapy...costing tens of thousands of dollars was paid for by Vocational Rehab. Without this program, my mom likely would have ended up in a wheel chair. Is it her fault that she was without coverage....probably so.

I pay approximately $3000.00 per year for major medical coverage for myself and family. The same coverage from the same Insurer will have many different costs depending on the state which you live. Pretty stupid right? That could easily be fixed.....don't you think?

Medicaid is a State sponsored Health Care program for low income households....why not increase these programs and make more people eligible? I understand that $3000.00 which is really pretty cheap as insurance costs go....is too big a bite for some to chew, so why not increase medicaid?????

What about Medicare? U.S. citizens are automatically eligible for Medicare at age 65.....why not lower the age and increase coverages?

I am sure there are other ideas that don't involve a government takeover. Tax cuts, tax credits, government vouchers.......oh yeah, and lets do what John McCain suggested during the debates and take a chainsaw to the budget and eliminate waste....and then follow up with what Barack Obama said during the debates and take a scalpel to it and SURELY we can reduce wastefully deficit spending by billions....maybe trillions and THAT would help pay for some of the above suggestions.

But alas....that falls on deaf ears......

[Charlyc]

Originally Posted by Maxel

Ummm... So, a foolish man's wise neighbor should be legally forced to pay for the foolishness of the foolish?

So never help thy neighbor?

Originally Posted by Maxel

By the way, I'd love to see a statistic of how many people with four broken limbs are refused health care in the U.S.A. I'm willing to wager that it's not very high.

Point is that if he is treated he'll end up financially ruined or bankrupt due to the cost, if they do treat him fully since there are several outpatient visits after broken limbs surgery. Its not just the one operation where things are put back in place.

Originally Posted by Maxel

Darn straight! That idea of individual rights is the entire basis of the Constitution- a document that the LDS Church officially recognizes as a document divinely inspired by God.

Ummm...so only a GOP interpretation of that constitution is legit before God? and Roe v Wade...never mind. And didn't that constitution set up a congress to pass legislation? like on national health care? or Obama's current proposal? why is that constitution inspired by God when it agrees with the GOP but not when the Dems are the majority?

Originally Posted by Maxel

Your opinion doesn't hold water in reality. That very idea of the rights of the individual- the idea of the right of men to live their lives without overt government intrusion- is a major ideology that the Founding Fathers of America rallied behind, an ideology that fueled the Revolutionary War, and an ideology that created the national unity that fed the fire of the American's righteous indignation.

Interesting that it only applies to the US person, that those same rights don't extent to, say, an Iraqi pre-2003? that same government that can't get into your house can bomb some Iraqi house (collateral damage off course)

Originally Posted by Maxel

.. Ayn Rand's economic theories, and notice how the 'virtue of selfishness' (as she calls it) and notice that every major leap forward in science and any industry has been wrought by the private enterpriser (the one who embodies the ideology of 'individual rights').

Which prophesies are those?

So Gekko was right , wasn't he. And those major leaps forward, would it include satellites? Nuclear power? Supersonic flight? all government programs, oh the internet was private enterprise? well not really but lets call it private since google's a private company. I wouldn't count the Apollo program since it didn't achieve much?

The prophesies are extensive from BY, Pratt, JFS, and others and are easily found. Last book I read on these was forwarded by ETBenson -who was certainly GOP stock- and mentioned all these -that the US would be'saved' by the west, which has already happened with IT etc, and the state will fight against state.....maybe over heatlh care? no j/k..

[pam]

What about Medicare? U.S. citizens are automatically eligible for Medicare at age 65.....why not lower the age and increase coverages?

There's hardly enough money to run this program as it is. Adding even more people of a younger age would probably run the program out of existence.

[pam]

Okay anyway...this thread had to do with Canadian Health Care...Not the US problems.

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by pam

There's hardly enough money to run this program as it is. Adding even more people of a younger age would probably run the program out of existence.

Of course you are right.......unless you do as I suggested and slash wasteful spending and sure up the program with the savings, it would never work. Point is....we don't have to reinvent the wheel, just put some air in the tires.

[Charlyc]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

Hmm. Based on your understanding of American law, Charlyc:

a) What does it mean to be "bankrupt"?
b) What happens to a person who is legally declared "bankrupt"?

Ummm.... bankruptcy is bad? Or is it Ok now in the ol USA? No wonder you can print up so much cash and be OK with it, but that's another issue.

[pam]

Okay here is the thing. If we can't get back to the OP topic and quit bashing countries..I'm going to close this.

[Maxel]

Originally Posted by Charlyc

So never help thy neighbor?

Help they neighbor, but be wise and prudent in doing so.

Originally Posted by Charlyc

Point is that if he is treated he'll end up financially ruined or bankrupt due to the cost, if they do treat him fully since there are several outpatient visits after broken limbs surgery. Its not just the one operation where things are put back in place.

To be perfectly honest, being financially "ruined" for the rest of his life is a far cry better than going through life a cripple because he didn't get treated at all. And we still have to remember this is the young man who bought a used car and was very foolish with his priorities- foolishness has its consequences.

Originally Posted by Charlyc

Ummm...so only a GOP interpretation of that constitution is legit before God? and Roe v Wade...never mind. And didn't that constitution set up a congress to pass legislation? like on national health care? or Obama's current proposal? why is that constitution inspired by God when it agrees with the GOP but not when the Dems are the majority?

Nice tactic- argument shift. Brilliant, Charlyc. You fault Americans for talking about individual rights, then take the fact that God-given individual rights form the basis of an inspired document in stride and bring the argument back to Dems vs. Repubs debate? Are you serious? Are you faulting Americans for talking about and valuing what Mormonism almost outright states is godly?

Originally Posted by Charlyc

Interesting that it only applies to the US person, that those same rights don't extent to, say, an Iraqi pre-2003? that same government that can't get into your house can bomb some Iraqi house (collateral damage off course)

I was against the Iraqi war. Most Republican Mormons I know were against it for some reason or another (granted, I don't talk politics or war with many Mormons). I would argue that individual rights should be granted to Iraqis as well.

Originally Posted by Charlyc

So Gekko was right , wasn't he. And those major leaps forward, would it include satellites? Nuclear power? Supersonic flight? all government programs, oh the internet was private enterprise? well not really but lets call it private since google's a private company. I wouldn't count the Apollo program since it didn't achieve much?

I was mostly thinking of pre-1900's. I don't know much about what you mentioned, so I'll cede those points to you- although I'm sure someone more learned than I may take issue with one or all of them.

Originally Posted by Charlyc

The prophesies are extensive from BY, Pratt, JFS, and others and are easily found. Last book I read on these was forwarded by ETBenson -who was certainly GOP stock- and mentioned all these -that the US would be'saved' by the west, which has already happened with IT etc, and the state will fight against state.....maybe over heatlh care? no j/k..

Do you remember the name of the book? I'd be interesting in reading them. Since they are easily found, do you think you could find a link to one or more, or remember a detail that would help me find them?