Women that are abused deserve the abuse?

[rampion]

If I were to play devil's advocate, I would ask what about women who give as good as they get. There are relationships where it goes both ways. Wouldn't you say that those people deserve each other?

But that isn't my real opinion. Nobody deserves to be abused. Ever. Even in the case of criminals on death row, we have laws that protect against "cruel and unusual punishment."

Women in abusive relationships who stay might not be able to leave. Some fear for their lives, and certain abusers are predatory and the risk that they will kill increases significantly when the victim leaves. There are other reasons too. Victims may fear being alone more than they fear abuse. It is normal that people fear the unknown more than they fear something they can predict, even when what they can predict is terrible. They may have values that prevent them from leaving. We are taught that marriage is eternal and families are forever. That makes it hard to leave, even if someone is unhappy or being abused. Victims are taught by the abusers, and often learned as children, that they do deserve it, and that they are being rightfully punished. Some believe it, at some inner level even if they say otherwise. And there is a fine line. Some abuse isn't obvious, but hurts all the same. Control, emotional invalidation, subtle put-downs. It's destructive, but harder to recognize as abuse. Victims with low self-esteem (that's pretty much all of them) tend to question that it really is abuse, or that they really have rights, or that they don't actually deserve it. Abusers have cycles - they act nice for a while, then they abuse, then they apologize and can be very loving and persuasive. It is hard to leave when he's promising to never do it again and seems to be, for that moment, everything the victim hoped for.

It seems so obvious sometimes from the outside that someone being abused should leave. In reality, it just isn't that easy.

[kellyprice]

I'm very new and just looking for some lds friends.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by kellyprice

I'm very new and just looking for some lds friends.

This is the place and we won't abuse you, no matter what this thread says.

[Moksha]

There are always women who are true submissives and desire some rough trade, as they say in Relief Society.

[Loudmouth_Mormon]

I pretty much agree with most of the stuff ryanh says on this thread. The world is full of people who (intentionally or otherwise) blur the line between 'deserved punishment' and abuse. When victims do it, it can be a huge barrier to seeking help.

I dunno. Say all the "trembling victimized people who just need a touch of sympathy and support", decided to have a tug-of-war with the "serial victims who use their status as 'poor picked-on me' as a way to manipulate or gain sympathy or attention". From what I've encountered in life, the serial victims would easily win blindfolded and only using two fingers from one hand - there are just so many more of them. Couple that with my belief that you can't fix someone, they can only fix themselves.

People who refuse to have a spine, end up victims in this world. This appears to be the way God put things together. From my standpoint, my efforts are better-spent on helping people understand this reality, than offering consoling words of comfort and support. Of course, comfort and support is valueable and useful. But in my experience, nobody has to look far for comfort and support - you have to look pretty hard sometimes for the word 'agency'.

I do believe there is much value in honestly looking at an answer to "well, what did you expect?". Value you just don't come by when immersing yourself in the sympathy and support of others.

LM

[annewandering]

People who refuse to have a spine? Hmm If they refuse that hard it means they have a spine doesnt it?

I know a very strong person who was in a situation like this. Her abuser told her he would sit kittycorner to her parents house and pick them off with his rifle if she left him.
He would have done it too. I talked to a womens shelter manager once about that situation. She said that the time after a woman left the abuser was a very dangerous time. If they would kill it would be then. And many do.

These 'spineless' women you speak of know their abuser better than we do. They know what they can and will do and it terrifies them. Spineless or not.

It is not easy to leave abusers. If you dont think so try working in a womens shelter for awhile. I bet you might just have second thoughts.

[Dove]

I'm wondering if we realize the psychological impact of a person caught in an abusive pattern. Most women who stay in abusive relationships do so because they have become so beaten down that they lack the self-esteem to escape. I believe this is a common fact known amongst psychologists. Most abused people become emotionally disempowered to leave the abusive relationship. This is why the police do intervene so strongly now in domestic violence....

Also, the majority of women who are murdered are murdered by their abusive partner as they are trying to leave this partner....this is a true statistic.

Abusive patterns run through the generations...."Train up a child in the way he/she should go, and he/she will not depart therefrom." This seems especially true for victims of abuse. So often the abuser was abused as a child themselves. This is not to excuse the abuse, just another fact....

No abuse is never right. Doesn't stop it from happening though....

[ryanh]

Stockholm syndrome and the like.

I think of Elizabeth Smart as a pretty strong person. I would assume her ordeal and help received afterwards has made her much stronger than otherwise, but the strength she shows now (willing to testify in public against her abusers) is evidence of the medal she is made of. Was, as a child, she just 'weak' for not having escaped her captors?

[Dove]

Originally Posted by ryanh

Stockholm syndrome and the like.

I think of Elizabeth Smart as a pretty strong person. I would assume her ordeal and help received afterwards has made her much stronger than otherwise, but the strength she shows now (willing to testify in public against her abusers) is evidence of the medal she is made of. Was, as a child, she just 'weak' for not having escaped her captors?

Actually, Elizabeth Smart did attempt to run away from her captors; however, she got lost in the woods where she was trying to run away and was caught by the man who was holding her.....hate to think of the consequences he enforced on her for doing so.....

Also, he threatened to kill her family were she to leave.....he attempted to kidnap her cousin as well while he had her.

Their threats are real, serious, and often attempted or carried out.....I'm so grateful Elizabeth made it home.....

PS. I lived in Salt Lake and saw this man while he had Elizabeth Smart, often. He was a street beggar and I would see him out on the streets, begging for money. This is how he came to know the Smart family. They allowed him to come to their home to do odd jobs for money. I'll never forget being in a restaurant in Salt Lake (Chuck a Rama) and seeing him with two other women their, eating. I strongly believe Elizabeth Smart was the third party. I feel so sad now that I didn't recognize them and blow the horn, so to speak. She was right their in the midst of us, and it took so long to find her.

[Loudmouth_Mormon]

Originally Posted by annewandering

It is not easy to leave abusers. If you dont think so try working in a womens shelter for awhile. I bet you might just have second thoughts.

My thoughts on the matter have evolved over time. I've worked with the SLC rape crisis center folks and other professionals, read books on the subject, and married someone who got out of an abusive relationship. My wife and I have aided the prosecution of her brother for sexual abuse of a minor, and polarized her family against us. If you wish to take issue with my opinions, that's perfectly ok - but please understand they're not based on unrighteously judgemental ignorance.

Originally Posted by dove

Most women who stay in abusive relationships do so because they have become so beaten down that they lack the self-esteem to escape.
...
Most abused people become emotionally disempowered to leave the abusive relationship.

I'm of the opinion that self-esteem comes as a consequence of making choices and taking action. I agree that it is possible to rob someone of some or all of their agency and freedom to choose. I'm not arguing against interventions or support groups or help. I am just saying that I've seen people caught in a loop of abuse/rescue/freedom/abuse/rescue/freedom. People in abusive relationships who buy the notion that they've been 'emotionally disempowered and robbed of their self-esteem' tend to remain in abusive relationships, or move from one to another. They can even move to other states and start life over, and still end up finding someone to get abused by.

This is why the police do intervene so strongly now in domestic violence....

I've spoken to maybe half a dozen cops in two different states about the issue. They all have at least one story to tell about responding to a domestic violence call, only to show up and have the victim (usually a woman) defend the perp, refuse to testify, lie to protect, in some cases assault the police who come to arrest the abuser. Sometimes the story involves the half-dozen times they've gone to a house to arrest the guy, only to go back 2 months later after she's taken him back. I've never talked to a police officer (who responds to the public) who does not have at least one story.

Yes, it's heartbreaking. Yes, we can look at all the reasons it happens. At the end of the day, the experience of every single person who has finally permanently escaped such a situation has one thing in common - the victim chose to leave that life. No amount of help, will ever help, unless the victim makes the choice to end the abuse. The victim mentality of "I've been disempowered and robbed of my self-esteem" only succeeds in making sure the abuse continues.

Originally Posted by ryanh

I think of Elizabeth Smart as a pretty strong person. I would assume her ordeal and help received afterwards has made her much stronger than otherwise, but the strength she shows now (willing to testify in public against her abusers) is evidence of the medal she is made of.

I agree. I also agree with Dove's point about how abuse often travels from generation to generation. If Elizabeth can 'break the cycle', we will all jump up and down and shout for joy.

I have a niece in another state who was abused by my wife's brother (the one I helped put behind bars). The brother was abused by an older brother, who was in turn abused by someone outside the family. The parents are broken and unable to help for some reason - possibly because the mother had been abused as a child and never resolved things. So it goes.

In the next year or two, my niece will hit puberty. We all worry greatly. She has a great mom, access to good counselors, we support her wherever and whenever we can. She put the bad guy behind bars. The church excommunicated him. These are things that help her. Will she be pregnant by 14 by some scumbag who hits her? I don't know. I sure hope not. I (and everyone else in her life) are doing whatever we can to help her make right choices and avoid that fate. At the end of the day, she'll either break the cycle or she won't.

LM