Women that are abused deserve the abuse?

[Dove]

LMM,

I feel like you are overlooking key points and facts about victims of abuse.

There's no way that Elizabeth Smart can "break the cycle" of abuse. She was born into a loving home, it seems. She was kidnapped and abused, yes. But, for the most part was raised in a loving healthy home....

I saw a newscast on the biological daughter of Elizabeth's abductor. She freely confessed she was raised in an extremely abusive environment by this person. What a different girl from Elizabeth Smart! Totally different in dress, demeanor, and pain. She was obviously a person who had grown up being abused....

You say that self-esteem comes as a consequence of making choices and taking action. In the cases of children who grew up being abused, this is over simplistic and rather trite. The haulmark of these children is very low self esteem......Some common refrains among abused people are; no matter what they do, it is never good enough....they feel enormous guilt. It is typical for the abused child to blame her/him self for the abuse. If only they were different/better somehow, they wouldn't be abused. This is also true for the spouses of abusive partners.....These traits are ingrained into them as children....

You speak as if a person raised in abuse has a rational/healthy arena from which to make sane choices in being treated appropriately/treating others appropriately...they don't. The framework they were presented with in growing up abused does scar them for life, i.e., leave them without the tools to judge correctly the people they choose to associate with, for the most part. Most people who have grown up in an abusive/dysfunctional environment will choose the same kind of environment as adults. I'm not sure why, but it's true....

While I admire your wife for being able to end her abusive relationship, the great majority of abused people don't get past it. This goes beyond the usual/normal bounds of being able to judge between right and wrong, or using rational judgement in relating to others.

Your comments seem without compassion or understanding, rather harsh. It's not as easy to recover from the effects of abuse as you're making it. Frankly, to truly recover, imo, is a lifelong journey and, in the end, only possible through the grace of Christ.

[Loudmouth_Mormon]

Originally Posted by Dove

There's no way that Elizabeth Smart can "break the cycle" of abuse.

The cycle I'm referring to: Elizabeth was abused by someone who was abused (maybe by someone who was abused themselves). I wasn't speaking about similarities in upbringing.

You say that self-esteem comes as a consequence of making choices and taking action. In the cases of children who grew up being abused, this is over simplistic and rather trite.

Why? You explain very well why abused kids tend to have low self-esteem, but you never get around to explaining why why you take issue with my opinion...

You speak as if a person raised in abuse has a rational/healthy arena from which to make sane choices in being treated appropriately/treating others appropriately...

A point of clarification: I'm assuming that we can both agree with Moroni's dad, when he tells us the spirit of Christ given to every man that he may know good from evil, right? I agree that just because we're born with the ability to know good from evil, does not mean we automatically have the knowledge/skills/ability to (as you put it) make sane choices. Yes, proper knowledge, skills, and abilities usually need the right set of circumstances to develop.

But you keep missing my point. I am not arguing against helping folks. I'm not arguing against compassion and tender mercy. I am not arguing aginst safe houses for victims or stiff penalties for abusers or interventions or any other good and wholesome suggestion people make on how to bless and improve the lives of folks who are hurting.

I am saying that no matter how much of that a victim recieves - it is up to them to avail themselves of it. They must make a conscious choice to cultivate the knowledge, skills, and abilities. They must take incredibly scary leaps of faith into new and unpredictable circumstances. They must shed their old lives, complete with the 'rules' they've been forced to live by, and walk into a new life. Will it be better? Worse? Just a shinier and cleaner face on the old crap? It can be terrifying. Some people refuse. Some people demand the old life.

I speak from a position of pragmatism, and understanding of the importance of agency.

The framework they were presented with in growing up abused does scar them for life, i.e., leave them without the tools to judge correctly the people they choose to associate with, for the most part.

You had me up until the comma there. I know quite a bit about permanent scars. I could spend hours and write pages on how people I know have been scarred, and different ways they bear their scars. I could tell you that I hate my goatee - it itches and looks like an animal with mange died on my face. But I will always have one, because my wife will, until the day she dies, have recurring waking nightmares where she is 'transported back' to the traumatic events of her past - blind and scared, unable to determine who is in bed next to her. If she can find my goatee, it helps her bring herself back to the present.

You dare to say a lifetime scar means they will never have the tools to judge correctly? It makes me rather upset to read that. What a damnable lie! What an uncharitable judgement against our fellow sons and daughters of a loving Heavenly Father! Dear Dove, please understand that I'm not yelling at you - but I will shout out against that horrible notion as long as there is breath in me. The entire plan of salvation rests on a foundation of agency - people can chose to be better today than yesterday. Scars can be dealt with. People can learn to walk on one leg, or write masterpieces after losing a hand, or even have a happy and sucessful marriage despite various lifetime handicapps that come from a brain that got miswired in it's formative years.

...the great majority of abused people don't get past it. This goes beyond the usual/normal bounds of being able to judge between right and wrong, or using rational judgement in relating to others.

Your comments seem without compassion or understanding, rather harsh.

It's very upsetting to see you level such a horrible judgement against people who have been abused, and then hear that I'm the one without compassion.

It's not as easy to recover from the effects of abuse as you're making it. Frankly, to truly recover, imo, is a lifelong journey and, in the end, only possible through the grace of Christ.

I never said anything about easy, and I also never said anything about 'recovering from the effects'. I'm talking about getting out of abusive situations permanently. No, it's not easy, and yes, it may very well entail lifelong scars. It's been ~14 years since my wife got herself out of her last abusive relationship. As she goes through life and encounters others with similar stories, you can bet your life that she won't be filling their heads with trajic stories about how they'll always be broken, and how "the majority of people like you will never get past it". Good grief. What a terrible thing to say. What a terrible thing to think.

LM

[Dove]

Hello, LMM

I would like to offer a peace offering and my sorrow that your wife has suffered such terrible abuse as you refer to....

LMM, look at the statistics......Everything I have said is based on the statistics I've heard about victims of abuse. FYI, I also suffer from the effects of severe abuse in my childhood. For the longest time I thought I was "normal" in making decisions and relating to others. Geuss what? I'm totally not.......

I see my friends over and over again choose abusive/dysfunctional relationships when this has been their past. They do so regardless of how sincerely they want a good relationship in their life. It's heartbreaking to watch them go through this over and over! Or my sibling, who has her master's degree in social work, and who still exhibits very dysfunctional behaviour as a result of her past abuse. No, for the most part, myself included, people who have been abused in their formative years will always innately struggle in making sound choices as far as healthy relating is concerned. The statistics bear this out....

I do have a wonderfully loving husband. You know what? Having him come back into my life was totally a gift of grace....It was through God's hand that we came together and were married. Every other relationship I had been in before was dysfunctional and/or abusive.

I don't kid myself that I'm mentally healthy and whole. It would be like telling myself I don't have diabetes and don't need the insulins I take several times a day to keep my blood sugars down. I struggle with getting along with others. This really came out on my mission, when the depth of the abuse I encountered (molestation as well as physical/verbal) was made manifest.....Personal relationships for me are rocky, at best. My husband is the only person in my life who loves me unconditionally and supports me to the fullest by being gently honest, among other things.

BTW, you used the term, "never," not I. However, just look at the statistics of abused people. Yes, sweet children are born pure and full of hope, with the wonderful childlike characteristics we are counseled to emulate.....With abuse, that is soon crippled and distorted in hideously ugly ways in the formative years....which is seldom gotten over by the majority of the victims. Even with the atonement, life, for me as one victim, is a daily battle.

You said that we all have scars. That we do. We are all "broken" and "fallen" and "lost." I'm alluding to the need for the atonement in each of our lives with this. But, I have yet to see the "mighty change of heart" spoken of in the Book of Mormon, where people lose "all desire to do evil" and "only desire to do good." I have yet to personally witness an incident where a person was fully healed and brought to this mighty change of heart....My experience is that we are left to cope with the hand that has been dealt us. I have never had my way cleared as far as my many problems go....Instead, I have been left rather blind to stumble upon them throughout my life and to struggle with them the best I can, despite all the many times I have prayed/read my scriptures/asked for healing. God has never rescued me from the horrificness of my memories or the innate dysfunctionalism with which I approach life.

You tell me "what a terrible thing to say," and "what a terrible thing to think." How kind is it to tell someone it's not that bad, when it is?! It's like telling me not to worry about my diabetes, it's not that bad, I'll get over it, or better yet, if I just have the faith/belief/desire God will heal me. What a joke! The bottom line is that I will live with diabetes until it, most likely, will provide me a slow awful death of losing my limbs, my eyesight, and destroying my internal organs, with dyalisis as the final slap into the next life. My doctor told me at age 30 that I had the life expectancy of age 60, making me middle aged at that point. I don't expect much different. All I can do with my diabetes is respect that I'm ill and to cope/work with it every day of my life. Same with the effects of abuse.

The jury is still out for me on the quantity/quality of "agency" each of us is given. I choose to believe that the children/people in Africa and around the world who die terrible deaths due to starvation/poverty/neglect really don't want to, that the Jewish children/people who went insane because of the concentration camps/atrocities of war really would want a sound mind, and that victims of abuse here at home really would prefer not to be abused. While I can site many instances of people who are forced into situations/events against their will on a daily basis, I tentatively believe that God will not judge us according to those things we have no control over. Perhaps that is where is mercy lies.

[belledame2]

"The victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often, the victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help assess your responsibility so that, if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruit. Yet no matter what degree of responsibility, from absolutely none to increasing consent, the healing power of the atonement of Jesus Christ can provide a complete cure."

- Apostle Richard G. Scott "Healing the Tragic Scars of Abuse," General Conference, Ensign, May 1992

[Threeve]

Under no circumstance do I believe some one "deserves" abuse, even if they are "asking" for it. True, some women are drawn to abusers, doesn't mean they got what's comming to them. A great book I've read is "Women Who Love Too Much" gives some reasoning on why some women end up in abusive relationships.
Every one makes mistakes, every one needs help some times, we should not judge. Some of these women's lives may be in danger, or even their children's, if they threaten to leave.

[bcguy]

How would you discribe verbal abuse? My wife flipps out and starts yelling at me from time to time. The other day, I baked some muffins. I did not put liners in the muffin pan. she flipped out that the teflon will wear off if using a scruber to scrub the remains of the baked on muffins on. Well, I told her its teflon and just use a soft cloth. She would not shut it and I yelled back "Its teflon pans, it can come off so knock it off!" I get tired of her verbal abuse at times. I went to the pan and bagan pushing off the baked on flakes easily with my finger dry, and all of it came off.

To many times its like this. What can I say?

[Threeve]

bcguy, to some degree, verbal abuse can be just as harmful. Does it get any worse than just nagging or over muffin pans? lol She sounds like my step mother, if we put a dirty dish in the wrong spot in the dishwasher, there is going to be some heads rolling! When I met my husband's parents, I would always ask if this is the right spot in the dishwasher that my cup goes. They thought I was nuts.
Her nagging, obsessiveness got to be so bad, my teenage sister ended up moving out. Some times it seems like some thing so little is not worth getting so upset about, but too much of it can be overbearing. Some times, I do have a quick fuze and snap at my husband, don't we all? That's no excuse, of course

[bcguy]

I have a answer to your nagging mother-inlaw.

Send her to Sudan or Somlia. Then she would REALLY appriciate freedom and the little things, she would forget about.

My wifes mom is just as bad from stories I have been told. She is obssessive paranoid. She would always kick the children out of the kitchen because she thinks thay were incapable of cooking. She would tell the kids not to use the washer/dryer because she thought thay would break it. She has historicly gotten into alot of verbal fights with her husband.

Every other conversation my mother-inlaw says "You better be carefull or you going to kill your self!!!"

At the time of me and my wife dating, she was living at home with a huge credit card drbt load. She could not live on her own. So several times, she was talking to me on the phone late at night. Her mom would rip the sheets of her bed at 10 pm just when she was heading off to bed.

She is just a plain bizzare paranoid woman. I COULD not believe it, for the first time in a DECADE thay are repairing there front door to use again! A decade ago, two crack heads kicked open the door when everyone was there and ran off.

Lastly, the mom would always had to force a familly member to ALWAYS stay behind to protect the "FORT" as the mom would call her house when everyone left for work or what ever. She does not work.

All kids have left the house about eight years ago. Daughter is only one left and has to deal with this crap from her mom all the time.

My wife said she lived in a verbally abusive familly and is glad she is not there anymore. Unfortunaly, I think she carried some of these problems into our marrige.

[dazed-and-confused]

Originally Posted by ryanh

What is your opinion?



That only women who make a stand and stop the cycle of abuse against them deserve to be treated better?

Or . . .

All women, no matter what their emotional, social, or mental status deserve to never be abused?



I’m of the opinion that any and all daughters of Heavenly Father don’t deserve to be emotionally or physically abused, cheated on, or otherwise offended. (by the same token, men don’t ‘deserve’ it either, no matter what they are guilty of)

thank you so much for that side note.

I’m also of the opinion that taking the stance that if a person is not getting themselves out of the cycle of abuse = a person that deserves to be abused is tatamount to whipping a person for being a victim! Kind of reminds me of that poor lady in Saudi Arabia that was punished for being raped! Yuk!

i agree. the havoc played upon ones mind in these situations is beyond many people.

In my mind, I’m making a very clear distinction between punishment (earned/deserved) and abuse (not deserved or earned, out of one’s own control). So, please don’t mix up the two without making the distinction. Perhaps some believe that remaining in a bad relationship and hoping a spouse is truly repentant is deserved punishment? That sounds so much to me like the enabling and justification that abusers use to justify their abusive actions!

Am I missing something?

yes, maybe you are, because clearly you have issues and your own adjenda for this post.
dont misunderstand me.......it is not a judgement......just an observation.....one victim to another.
the victim has as much as a "pay-off" as the abuser.
are you in a bad relationship?
abuser's seem to blame the "other" for "making" them do it.........well, so do victims.

an abuser sees Punishment as desrved.....it suits their (his/her)needs....
well...so does the victim....see it as deserved...hence, the victim role.
by the way....are you aware that the "victim role" is one of abuse?
from your post i would suggest that you are in need of some professional advice.....i ask again......are you in an abusive relationship?
what you may be missing lies within you......ask your therapist.