A shot across the bow

[marshac]

Originally Posted by Universeman

Dark energy is somehow accelerating the expansion of the entire universe

We're accelerating? That's a new one for me- especially since it would violate the first law of thermodynamics, and that's saying nothing of the fantastic speeds a celestial body would reach under a state of constant acceleration.

To me, the creation of the universe was a perfect pool shot- God racked the balls and took the shot, knowing full well where every ball would be at any given point in time. If he had to make constant alterations to the universe after it's initial creation, then that would somehow suggest that the initial creation was less than perfect.

[dazed-and-confused]

i saw on the history channel that ALL of the early scientists were in fact, priests and holy men.
the three wise men were, afterall, astrologers.
back then science was directly tied to religion,
what happened?
somewhere along the way a rift occured between science and religion.
i still see this old truth to be valid.....just because we dont know the whole formula, doesnt mean that there isnt a God and that He is not in control.
on the other hand, an argument has often beeen made that there is no God because there is no proof.
well, i feel that i have proof...for myself....as for anyone else?...they're on their own with that one.....i cant help you.

[Universeman]

I am deeply concerned by the responses I have received from you concerning scientific knowledge you have made some very illogical ascertations. Science is the pursuit of knowledge through the study of the physical universe, as such it is a human and imperfect endeavor, on the other hand even with the revealed gospel, not every thing has been revealed to us, such as the manner in which the universe or our planet was organized out of unorganized matter, or how life was placed on the Earth, all we know is that this was accomplished by some means that has not yet been revealed to us. That said if we know that Heavenly Father exists as has been revealed to us by Joseph Smith, then what do we have to fear from some scientific discovery that is seemingly at odds with what has been revealed to us regarding the true nature of the universe.

AoF:11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

And

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Also

D&C:19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

All I'm saying is there is no need for us to feel threatened by science such as when the vast majority of the scientific community agrees that 74% of the universe consists of dark energy or that life on this planet is the result of billions of years of evolution. Scientists’ are not trying to deceive us, they are simply studying the nature of the universe and life on this planet the best that they are able to in the most honest and pier reviewed manner possible based on testable hypotheses. Furthermore let me add that if we could prove the existence of Heavenly Father through scientific discovery it would destroy our need for faith, this applies to the Book of Mormon as well, we are required to have faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

D&C:29 And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

Alma 42: 7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

I simply study science as honestly as I possibly can, I try to understand the discoveries in an unbiased manner, to say that the universe was created in such and such manner is pointless speculation and I see no harm in learning from the best books on science and pondering what I can learn from them. Science has no bearing on my testimony whatsoever, because my testimony comes from the spirit and not from what I know about archeological evidence or scientific knowledge.

[marshac]

Originally Posted by Universeman

I am deeply concerned by the responses I have received from you concerning scientific knowledge you have made some very illogical ascertations.

Me? Who are you directing this at? You receive a whole smörgåsbord of responses and positions- they can't all be lumped into the same category.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by Universeman

BTW that’s a very interesting article from the BYU Religious Studies Center about how the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith taught are still in complete harmony with what we currently know about modern science.

Would you please provide a link?

Elphaba

[jadams_4040]

Originally Posted by Universeman

My dad is an atheist and yet some how I have managed to balance his way of looking at the universe without a god with my conviction that there is indeed one. I am currently working towards a BS in Space Studies which is giving me the opportunity to learn how the universe operates, I have learned that the universe in its current state gets along just fine with out any intervention from Heavenly Father whatsoever, in fact from the point of view of an atheist everything about our existence can be explained by the processes of natural causes and the life on this planet is nothing more then a result of the laws of physics and evolution, a chance occurrence of random events.

The point I want to make is that we should not rush to judgment simply because someone does not think the same way we do because the fact of the matter is that even though I am as certain as I can possibly be that this gospel is true, that does not mean that we have a monopoly on all truth and that there is far more that we don’t know about the universe and the gospel then what we do know, I have no idea how my father, my brothers or any one else, my self included will be judged when it is all said and done. It seems incredibly selfish and unfair for us to say that we have a inside track on exaltation simply because we are lucky enough to be Gods chosen few, tantamount to baptizing babies IMO. On the other hand perhaps we aren’t God’s chosen people, but rather we are the people who have chosen to follow God and he has offered us the opportunity to be his servants by being a part of his kingdom here on Earth and doing his will for the salvation of man, what think you?

We dont profes to "know" everything; as our 9th artyicle of faith clearly states. I;E...
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

[Universeman]

All I'm saying is that science is based on imperfect theories which are then supported by empirical data until such time as new data requires a rethinking of the old model, Dark Energy is a perfect example of the scientific process in action. Saying that dark energy doesn’t exist, is like saying God used magic to create the universe out of nothing, which BTW he didn’t.

SkyandTelescope.com - News Blog - Dark Energy: Real and Overwhelming

[Universeman]

Remember dark energy's existence is unprovable because it can only be inferred by its effects, does any one else see a parallel between dark energy and the spirit? Just thought I would point that out because that’s kind of interesting I think.

[marshac]

Originally Posted by Universeman

All I'm saying is that science is based on imperfect theories which are then supported by empirical data until such time as new data requires a rethinking of the old model, Dark Energy is a perfect example of the scientific process in action. Saying that dark energy doesn’t exist, is like saying God used magic to create the universe out of nothing, which BTW he didn’t.

SkyandTelescope.com - News Blog - Dark Energy: Real and Overwhelming

Thanks for the link- it was interesting. I'm not a physicist- i'm a chemist and biologist. I honestly don't like being talked to like a Luddite either- not everyone can be expected to keep up with the latest fads in cosmology. I don't need a lecture on the scientific method either.

Also, I think you're operating under some false assumptions though- who here fears science? I know I don't- nor does the church. I find the elegant complexities of biological systems to be the very signature of God.

Regarding the actual creation-

Have you ever read this quote by Arthur C. Clarke- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

So in a sense, given our current understanding of creation, it WAS magic. We have some ideas about how it may have happened, but honestly, some of the ideas put forth about what actually caused the big bang are pretty nuts.

[anatess]

I fear no science.

Actually, I believe science and theology go hand-in-hand. Science provides a better understanding of the nature of God and theology provides answers to the holes in science, with all the rest left to future revelations in both science and theology. Of course, if you're an atheist, then science is just that. Scientific facts with a whole bunch of unknowns and guesstimates.