A shot across the bow

[Universeman]

My apologies marshac, it was never my intent to insult. I have struggled my self on how to reconcile my faith with my scientific studies, I still do and you are surely far more knowledgeable regarding evolution than I am for example. Considering your field of expertise I would be surprised in the extreme if you have never encountered a hard line atheistic evolutionary biologist during your academic pursuits.

I guess what I’m hoping to get across with this thread is how can we best confront these differences with our colleges that we work with or otherwise encounter. How can we advance our scientific pursuits if in the middle of an equation we simply insert “and then a miracle happens” as some sort of stop gap measure until we learn how Heavenly Father operates, we all know that’s not going to fly. How we approach these issues with our professors and colleges can be rather touchy, I want to discuss these kind of touchy subjects with other Latter Day Saints so that perhaps together we can find better ways to confront these issues. However based on my exposure to atheists its pretty much best to not mention God at all as they really don’t care what our beliefs are and they will are only willing to consider empirical data.

To quote another famous atheist, Douglas Adams
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

Of course I believe in God but I don’t believe that there are fairies under the garden either. I have heard that quote by Arthur C Clark and I see where you are going with it and I completely agree with you. What’s tricky is where do we draw the line between faith and science and not start tossing fairies under the garden just because we don’t know how things work?

I really hope that I’m making sense and not making things worse, if not please ask me to clarify.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Universeman

.....
I have learned that the universe in its current state gets along just fine with out any intervention from Heavenly Father whatsoever, in fact from the point of view of an atheist everything about our existence can be explained by the processes of natural causes and the life on this planet is nothing more then a result of the laws of physics and evolution, a chance occurrence of random events.

.....

I would be most interested in any scientific undertaking that has proven a single chance occurrence of any random event. The closest thing I know of is what is called a quantum abnormality. I would submit that as science has advance we have learned that what was previously thought to be random or chance event had only been because we did not understand all the parameters associated with the cause.

I believe that the argument of random chance is as shallow and intellectually ignorant as the notion that G-d did it by magic or divine un-understandable means. They are both excuses for not knowing.

Personally I do not accept the notion that just because we do not know how something came about that we assume that either G-d did it or that it was random. I believe the only true answer in such a case is that based on what we do know – we just do not know the cause.

But to be honest – the greatest mystery to me is when we consider all the order that is at every level of existence of all that science measures – that the best explanation that someone has to explain of the whole thing - is that there is no sign nor can there be any intelligence anywhere in it. To me that is one of the most baffling and bewildering sentiment of our generation. The other notion is that anyone that can see intelligence within the order of things is a complete idiot and a fool. I find such notions contrary to science and the intelligent advancement of possibilities.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Universeman

My apologies marshac, it was never my intent to insult. I have struggled my self on how to reconcile my faith with my scientific studies, I still do and you are surely far more knowledgeable regarding evolution than I am for example. Considering your field of expertise I would be surprised in the extreme if you have never encountered a hard line atheistic evolutionary biologist during your academic pursuits.

I guess what I’m hoping to get across with this thread is how can we best confront these differences with our colleges that we work with or otherwise encounter. How can we advance our scientific pursuits if in the middle of an equation we simply insert “and then a miracle happens” as some sort of stop gap measure until we learn how Heavenly Father operates, we all know that’s not going to fly. How we approach these issues with our professors and colleges can be rather touchy, I want to discuss these kind of touchy subjects with other Latter Day Saints so that perhaps together we can find better ways to confront these issues. However based on my exposure to atheists its pretty much best to not mention God at all as they really don’t care what our beliefs are and they will are only willing to consider empirical data.

To quote another famous atheist, Douglas Adams
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

Of course I believe in God but I don’t believe that there are fairies under the garden either. I have heard that quote by Arthur C Clark and I see where you are going with it and I completely agree with you. What’s tricky is where do we draw the line between faith and science and not start tossing fairies under the garden just because we don’t know how things work?

I really hope that I’m making sense and not making things worse, if not please ask me to clarify.

I will tell you how I answered my professor in Quantum Mechanics. I asked how it is that he thought that having faith in what we think we understand of G-d is any more foolish than having faith in what we think we understand of electrons. And just because we may not have all the answers about G-d why is it any less wise to pray to G-d expecting an answer than someone that may not have all the answers about electrons turning on a switch and expecting the light to go on. If you think that G-d does not exist because there is no answer to a prayer that such is no wiser than someone that thinks there are no electrons because a light did not go on.

The Traveler

[davidroscoe]

Hello,,

Everyone from the time their born, have it within their personality to discover what already there. I can remember discovering i wanted to walk for the attention, because where that attention came to me, when i couldnt walk. Then wanting to walk for more attention. Then when i was trying to walk, i couldnt understand what was being said untill someone pointed at something, and i got such a kick out of it, and started pointing at everything for the word. Then choosing from role models who i wanted to be like, and how i was going to get what i wanted from my surrounding. After that was more or less about what i thought was important, and what i wanted to ignore. I think thats basic for everyone though i dont think a lot of people spend time remembering their own choices that drove them to be who they are. Its not always easy to see what someone else is talking about because of their personal experainces or choices.

If you like someone, it may be because your like them in a way, or they have something you dont have, like knowlege. Everyone basically becomes what they are like, what they like. So people tend to gravitate twards what they like. Forming different groups based on their likes and dislikes. Often leaving space thats hard to bridge and many times leaves people to use a type of understanding in order to do that. Thats more done when its benificial to co-exist with others who are different.

When i spend time reading the bible and ever came across anything that was questionable, i would ask Heavenly Father, but also try and figure it out myself. That because i cared about what God cared for.(If i mention another G-d, and a understanding of a untrue charecter, then i wont spell it out). It always seems to work best when there is something God says or someone says about God, and i cant understand how it applys to life or how to use it in life. But in prayer i would always ask that i be shown it was Heavenly Father who gave the answer, and that seemed to help bring the answer in such a way that would prove what i wanted to know and how its intended purpose. So those building blocks of choices went in a total different way than most . But then seeing how that unfolded in such a way to actually live the part.

With all that seeing God work in such a way couldnt figure out why he was showing me all this stuff, i mean there are others who are just as curious as myself, and didnt they deserve to know like myself. Then it came to me why, and thats to be like him. Then the worlds, systems, galaxys, and univers i understood better, as they were for us, and because of us. Created for our existance.

In studying people, it also helped me to understand myself much better. I like to be asked for whats needed, and i like giving things to people who do what i want them to do by example, expecially if they use it for a good reason in the same manner i would. So when i think of God, i see him in much the same manner. When i do ponder things i like to think the answers lay within us, to unlock. I also understand everyone like to specialize in something too, though im not sure wich way is better, though i do know eventually everyone will know and be able to connect what they have learned with What God has to teach us later.

Peace and Love in Jesus.