How do you define faith?

[DigitalShadow]

Originally Posted by the_jason

We don't know everything, nor are we supposed to know everything. Heavenly Father has revealed to us all that we need to be exalted. Once we're exalted we'll receive more answers than we ever dreamed existed. A person does not need to know all the answers to have faith. That's what faith is: believing things that you don't completely know. Heavenly Father doesn't give us knowledge and then say 'Now go have faith.' Faith brings us to knowledge, not the other way around.

I don't expect anyone to know everything. I also realize that a person does not need to know everything to have faith, but how do you know where to place your faith? Obviously there is something that you do know that caused the faith in the first place and that's what I'm trying to get at, since I seem to be missing that part.

Most people describe it as this overwhelming feeling and that they just "know" but I have never felt that and it confuses me that so many people just "know" these things, but obviously some of them are wrong since the things that they just "know" conflict with each other in many cases, so how can these overwhelming feelings be trusted?

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by DigitalShadow

But what is religion if not the pursuit of the truth? I realize there are many benefits for believers, but that is irrelevant to the question of whether it is true or not. For me, finding the truth is more important than receiving possibly false comfort in times of need. When I face adversity, I look to myself and my own problem solving ability to get myself out of it.

Religious truths are based upon a metaphysical understanding. As such, they are not subject to empirical investigation or proof. They exist outside of an epistemological definition of knowledge. They require a leap of faith. Many of us have found that leap to be worthwhile. Perhaps you could think of it as an adjunct to your current way of looking at things and problem solving skills. I know that my faith has provided an additive dimension to my own life.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by DigitalShadow

I like your approach to the subject but it still seems somewhat flawed to me, so let us debate this further.

When I flip a light switch, I don't have "faith" that it will turn on and that the concepts behind incandescent lighting are sound. I have simply observed that when I hit the switch, the vast majority of the time the light will turn on. The same logic can not be applied to faith in religion. I have observed that when people pray using any religion, this does not improve their chances of anything. Good things and bad things happen just the same... if good things happen, they assume their prayer was answered, if bad things happen they justify it by saying either they didn't have enough faith or it was God's plan. This gives me no precedence to rely on as I haid with the lighting analogy.

Yes it is true that I love my wife, but I don't believe it required a leap of faith. I didn't bare everything and leave myself completely vulnerable to her the second I met her, just as she didn't bare everything to me. As we got to know each other better, we slowly opened up to each other as new levels of trust were reached. Again, applying the same philosophy to religion yields no results. I have prayed many times and received nothing in return. No imperical evidence or even feelings of the divine.

Reality is subjective. We each create our own reality through our unique neural mappings in our brain. All any of us have to go on is what we see and touch, so that's what I draw my conclusions from, and so far none of my observations have lead me to believe in a religion.

Now let me pose another question to you. People believe in religion based on feelings, right? Arguing which religion has more emperical evidence is fruitless because because they are all meant to be taken on faith. But the problem I see with this is that there are many religions out there all with people that claim to have received divine feelings leading them to their particular religion. I've met people from different faiths, all extremely devoted and claiming to "know" their religion is true. Obviously all of them can't be right as many of them have conflicting messages, so how can these divine feelings be trusted if they obviously have the capability to mislead people?

Thank you for responding. Back to the light and switch analogy. The point is that without knowledge of how the causes and effects apply to produce light by what ever means – people make assumptions. When you make an assumption that is another way of exercising faith. As a scientist I can vouch for fact that despite how often something seems to work; if the principles are not understood there is no scientific reason to make assumptions that trends will continue. There are only two means by which a person can act. One is by knowledge the other by assumption or faith. All that faith is – is the propensity to act without knowledge and make assumptions based on trends.

It is possible that people act in misguided faith – gambling is a good example of this. Anyone that understands statistics will not “gamble”, unless they act foolishly with misguided assumptions and faith.

Prayer is interesting to me. I find it odd that so many people pray without realizing they are approaching the most brilliant and intelligent mind in the universe, yet they would advise him on how to run things and answer according to their view of things. Yes, I agree that many people answer their own prayers or they un-answer their own prayers. What G-d is doing is allowing those that would learn from him to become enlightened. Contrary to popular opinion enlightenment is not the ability to spout doctrine, it is the means to become loving and compassionate – when loving and compassion are not logical.

I used the fact that you love your wife to make more than a logical point. If you only love when it is logical then those that you think you love will not have faith in you or your love.

The Traveler

[Misshalfway]

DigitalShadow,
I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I think that you make some great questions and you make them with sincerity.

My experience with faith is that it is a journey. I too, love Alma 32. Faith starts with a desire to believe...and only that. It is planting the seed.....watering it.....feeding it.....and it grows into a tree. And then comes the fruit...with its tremendous sweetness.

I am not the best debater in the world. I am sure there are sharper tools in the shed. But I do know my own experience has basically followed this analogy. My faith at its most basic parts starts with whether or not there is a God. I have wrestled with that question. And in my mind I wondered at times if there was a God, was He good? Cause frankly life does get hard and prayer and worship doesn't exactly give people immunity from really hard things. But I do know that there is a God. He has spoken to me in lots of different ways. I am learning that He knows me and loves me. Although, I doubt that too some days. But I have a desire to believe that He loves me and knows me. And so I ask Him to show me. I ask him lots and lots of questions. The more I ask, the more of His influence I feel and the more I am led to find what I need to push my faith into the realm of truly knowing. It is often said in the church, "line upon line, precept upon precept." I have found this to be true. One step at a time. One truth at a time.

I have also learned that desire to believe is essential. Being willing to go into the dark....into the not knowing.....trying it.....testing it.......hanging on until the light comes. This life is in the end a test of faith. Who will hang on and believe though the path is difficult. It is thru the trial of faith that builds the knowing. But at the core of the journey is the desire of the believer that drives the quest to "know".

[DigitalShadow]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Thank you for responding. Back to the light and switch analogy. The point is that without knowledge of how the causes and effects apply to produce light by what ever means – people make assumptions. When you make an assumption that is another way of exercising faith. As a scientist I can vouch for fact that despite how often something seems to work; if the principles are not understood there is no scientific reason to make assumptions that trends will continue. There are only two means by which a person can act. One is by knowledge the other by assumption or faith. All that faith is – is the propensity to act without knowledge and make assumptions based on trends.

It is possible that people act in misguided faith – gambling is a good example of this. Anyone that understands statistics will not “gamble”, unless they act foolishly with misguided assumptions and faith.

Prayer is interesting to me. I find it odd that so many people pray without realizing they are approaching the most brilliant and intelligent mind in the universe, yet they would advise him on how to run things and answer according to their view of things. Yes, I agree that many people answer their own prayers or they un-answer their own prayers. What G-d is doing is allowing those that would learn from him to become enlightened. Contrary to popular opinion enlightenment is not the ability to spout doctrine, it is the means to become loving and compassionate – when loving and compassion are not logical.

I used the fact that you love your wife to make more than a logical point. If you only love when it is logical then those that you think you love will not have faith in you or your love.

The Traveler

First off, I'd like to thank you for your reply as well, it's nice to find a fellow scientist here.

My point with the analysis of your light analogy is that if you define faith that way (as the propensity to act without knowledge and make assumptions based on trends), then I don't see how it applies to religion. I assume that the light switch will turn on the light based on the trend that it almost always turns on the light (unless the light bulb is burnt out), I assume that a religion is true based on the trend ???. There are no direct action to result links that can be made in religion. The only testable conditions a religion provides all happen after you're dead.

I also disagree on your gambling point. I don't think people gamble because they have an ignorance of statistics (or common sense for that matter, casinos obviously make lots of money), I think they gamble because they get addicted to the rush they get when they win against the odds and make money off it. They don't have faith (or make an assumtion) that they will make money.

I think that a better example is religious fanatic terrorists who have faith that killing for their religion is the right thing to do and they will be rewarded for it. We can say how wrong and evil they are from our point of view, but we also had drastically different upbrinings. If you're raised from birth to believe something is true, chances are you will grow up to have an unshakable belief in it. This is supported by the fact that the majority of people are the same religion as their parents (obviously there are exceptions, I'm just observing the majority).

My point is simply that faith can be a dangerous thing and knowing where to place it (if anywhere) is a non-trivial matter to me. I hear people say how strong their faith is and that no matter what is discovered or what evidence comes to light, it would not shake their beliefs, but I don't think I can ever be like that. It seems unscientific to me. There are hunches that you can go on in science, but faced with overwhelming evidence opposing them, I don't see the value in blindly following my original hunch to the exclusion of everything else.

I do completely agree with you on prayer though and I wish more people saw it that way.

And to clarify, I do believe love goes beyond logic, but it is also something that requires two parties. I love my wife more than anything and she can see that in the things I do, just as I can see it in the things she does. My point is that I don't feel love from a higher power, no matter how much I try to give it. You can say that it's because I don't want it enough, just as I can say that you only feel it because you want it so much.

Sorry for the long post, but I really am enjoying this conversation

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by DigitalShadow

First off, I'd like to thank you for your reply as well, it's nice to find a fellow scientist here.

My point with the analysis of your light analogy is that if you define faith that way (as the propensity to act without knowledge and make assumptions based on trends), then I don't see how it applies to religion. I assume that the light switch will turn on the light based on the trend that it almost always turns on the light (unless the light bulb is burnt out), I assume that a religion is true based on the trend ???. There are no direct action to result links that can be made in religion. The only testable conditions a religion provides all happen after you're dead.

I also disagree on your gambling point. I don't think people gamble because they have an ignorance of statistics (or common sense for that matter, casinos obviously make lots of money), I think they gamble because they get addicted to the rush they get when they win against the odds and make money off it. They don't have faith (or make an assumtion) that they will make money.

I think that a better example is religious fanatic terrorists who have faith that killing for their religion is the right thing to do and they will be rewarded for it. We can say how wrong and evil they are from our point of view, but we also had drastically different upbrinings. If you're raised from birth to believe something is true, chances are you will grow up to have an unshakable belief in it. This is supported by the fact that the majority of people are the same religion as their parents (obviously there are exceptions, I'm just observing the majority).

My point is simply that faith can be a dangerous thing and knowing where to place it (if anywhere) is a non-trivial matter to me. I hear people say how strong their faith is and that no matter what is discovered or what evidence comes to light, it would not shake their beliefs, but I don't think I can ever be like that. It seems unscientific to me. There are hunches that you can go on in science, but faced with overwhelming evidence opposing them, I don't see the value in blindly following my original hunch to the exclusion of everything else.

I do completely agree with you on prayer though and I wish more people saw it that way.

And to clarify, I do believe love goes beyond logic, but it is also something that requires two parties. I love my wife more than anything and she can see that in the things I do, just as I can see it in the things she does. My point is that I don't feel love from a higher power, no matter how much I try to give it. You can say that it's because I don't want it enough, just as I can say that you only feel it because you want it so much.

Sorry for the long post, but I really am enjoying this conversation

Again I wish I had more time to converse with you. There is both false faith and false religion just like there are false assumptions in science. For example are dinosaurs warm blooded or cold blooded. Today most scientists will agree that they are warm blooded – 50 years ago most agreed that they were cold blooded.

The problem is that many tend to have faith in “expert” opinion. Few of us have the time and resources to “check out” or validate everything that is being said. Since you are a scientist you will understand the following – I think. It is a template for understanding how G-d deals with man.

• G-d will not do for man what man is capable of doing for himself.
• G-d will do for man what man is not capable of doing for himself.
• G-d will not do for man that which does not benefit man in the long (eternal) term.
• G-d will do for man that which will benefit man in the long (eternal) term.
• G-d will not do anything for man with out the concurrence of that man.

If you consider the LDS concept that man is the offspring of G-d and that we are undergoing advanced training for define status some thing about life can make sense. For example, we are having a temporary experience. However: The experience is real (not pretend) the opportunities are real (not pretend). The consequences are real (not pretend).

As far as becoming enlightened – I have not found a better “path” to travel than what is offered in the LDS “faith”. If I could find something better; I would accept it in a heart beat.

If you have found better opportunity to participate in enlightening activities please point me. To be involved in community, serve in calling, experience love and compassion service. Consider the missionary program, you earn your own money and pay for your service. Welfare where all fast and offer what they save to the poor – and all regardless of what they have can participate with the same expectations and commitment to service – rich or poor. To take upon covenants – again all can help one another without attending special seminaries, or colleges to obtain degrees. One serving is not considered greater than another or deserving of greater reward. I could go on but I will ask you if you know of a better way to enlighten a society?

The Traveler

[DigitalShadow]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Again I wish I had more time to converse with you. There is both false faith and false religion just like there are false assumptions in science. For example are dinosaurs warm blooded or cold blooded. Today most scientists will agree that they are warm blooded – 50 years ago most agreed that they were cold blooded.

The problem is that many tend to have faith in “expert” opinion. Few of us have the time and resources to “check out” or validate everything that is being said. Since you are a scientist you will understand the following – I think. It is a template for understanding how G-d deals with man.

• G-d will not do for man what man is capable of doing for himself.
• G-d will do for man what man is not capable of doing for himself.
• G-d will not do for man that which does not benefit man in the long (eternal) term.
• G-d will do for man that which will benefit man in the long (eternal) term.
• G-d will not do anything for man with out the concurrence of that man.

If you consider the LDS concept that man is the offspring of G-d and that we are undergoing advanced training for define status some thing about life can make sense. For example, we are having a temporary experience. However: The experience is real (not pretend) the opportunities are real (not pretend). The consequences are real (not pretend).

As far as becoming enlightened – I have not found a better “path” to travel than what is offered in the LDS “faith”. If I could find something better; I would accept it in a heart beat.

If you have found better opportunity to participate in enlightening activities please point me. To be involved in community, serve in calling, experience love and compassion service. Consider the missionary program, you earn your own money and pay for your service. Welfare where all fast and offer what they save to the poor – and all regardless of what they have can participate with the same expectations and commitment to service – rich or poor. To take upon covenants – again all can help one another without attending special seminaries, or colleges to obtain degrees. One serving is not considered greater than another or deserving of greater reward. I could go on but I will ask you if you know of a better way to enlighten a society?

The Traveler

Scientific theories are assumptions that change with evidence. A widely accepted idea can be revised or even thrown out all together depending on what is observed, as you pointed out with your dinosaur example. But I think that faith is entirely different than scientific theory and can't be compared. Are your religious beliefs really as easily changed as your scientific ones?

Yes, I think that your church does a lot of good and it's build on soundly moral concepts, which is why I'm investigating it in the first place. However, I've also experienced intolerance and bigotry from many religions, including yours. You can say that these people are not acting in accordance with all your churches teachings, but if you're going to look at the good that a church has inspired, you must also look at the bad that it has inspired whether it was intentional or not.

As an atheist moving to Utah, I've faced a bit of intolerance. Most people are polite on the surface, some genuinely mean it, but others immediately assume that I am an immoral heathen simply because I'm not a member and treat me with disdain. I've met a lot of jerks and immoral people and in my experience, what religion they claim to be has nothing to do with it. Judging someone entirely by their stated religion not only seems wrong to me, but seems to go against their own religious philosophy.

I would also like to state that all of those good things you mention don't require religion. I enjoy helping other people, I don't do it because I expect to be rewarded in the afterlife, I do it because it is the right thing to do. In my experience, the religious people who do the most good, don't do it for their religion or the perceived rewards, they do it because they are inherently good people and would have done it anyway.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by DigitalShadow

Scientific theories are assumptions that change with evidence. A widely accepted idea can be revised or even thrown out all together depending on what is observed, as you pointed out with your dinosaur example. But I think that faith is entirely different than scientific theory and can't be compared. Are your religious beliefs really as easily changed as your scientific ones?

Yes, I think that your church does a lot of good and it's build on soundly moral concepts, which is why I'm investigating it in the first place. However, I've also experienced intolerance and bigotry from many religions, including yours. You can say that these people are not acting in accordance with all your churches teachings, but if you're going to look at the good that a church has inspired, you must also look at the bad that it has inspired whether it was intentional or not.

As an atheist moving to Utah, I've faced a bit of intolerance. Most people are polite on the surface, some genuinely mean it, but others immediately assume that I am an immoral heathen simply because I'm not a member and treat me with disdain. I've met a lot of jerks and immoral people and in my experience, what religion they claim to be has nothing to do with it. Judging someone entirely by their stated religion not only seems wrong to me, but seems to go against their own religious philosophy.

I would also like to state that all of those good things you mention don't require religion. I enjoy helping other people, I don't do it because I expect to be rewarded in the afterlife, I do it because it is the right thing to do. In my experience, the religious people who do the most good, don't do it for their religion or the perceived rewards, they do it because they are inherently good people and would have done it anyway.

I enjoy our conversation and I am sorry that I do not have more time to discuss the relationship of science and religion. Personally I see religion as a kind of science and I agree with you that the science of religion has been greatly abused and misunderstood. In the past I have posted that one of the great abuses of religion is the focus on self. I believe that this is very much a “ME” generation and time. Often we are encouraged to find a religion that fits with the “ME” agenda. Even salvation and being saved is defined by the gratification of the “ME” quest.

In science there is no “ME”. From my previous analogy of light and faith in a light coming on by operating the switch we learn that the light works for anyone operating the switch – regardless of their professed faith. The correspondence in religion is that those that seek shall find. In the LDS religion we ask people to pray concerning truth. I am not one that adheres to the “G-d answer by feeling” concept. Personally I like the concept of a journey. We do not drive car, waiting at the end of a street waiting for all the lights to turn green. We begin by driving to the first light. If the light is red we stop at the light and wait for the light to turn green. Each stage of our journey we take the first stage by studying maps, directions and our memory. Then we begin our journey. We look for indications (signs) as we travel to assist us. Sometimes we may even find the signs misleading. Sometimes we need to ask directions. Sometimes we just do the best we can and hope (have faith) it turns out.

I am not sure what you are looking for in your prayers. The idea that an angel will appear and explain things or that you will find a burning bush from which you will be told things is what I believe is doubtful. What I have found is that your thought process will evolve and you will have ideas and thoughts different to what you have had in the past. For example: while reading the Book of Mormon you will find inspiring thoughts giving enlightenment. Now you may think that you would have had the same thoughts had you not been reading the Book of Mormon. So keep a record or a journal and see if there is any difference.

In the meantime – I wish you well in your quest for truth. I do believe in such endeavors you will find many similarities with others (like myself) that are seeking. For me – I am not seeking heaven as a destination but as a means of travel.

The Traveler

[Heckya]

Originally Posted by DigitalShadow

First, let me explain that I am not religious, but am very curious about religion in general. My wife is LDS, I go to church with her most of the time (for just over a year), I've talked with our Bishop and also a couple missionaries but no one has been able to provide satisfying answers to my questions so I decided to come here.

I have always been fascinated with the concept of faith. All religious people I have talked to refer to faith as an inherently good trait, but what exactly is "faith" and why is it good? I've always understood it as a belief in something that there is no evidence for. But there are an abundance of concepts out there that have no strong evidence for them, blindly believing in all of them doesn't make any sense to me, but if you blindly believe one, why not more of them?

Having a strong scientific background, in general I accept whatever I've seen the most evidence for. I would like to be religious, but I can't find any strong evidence that any of them are true. But even if I did find evidence that one were true, I wouldn't be doing it correctly because it wouldn't be out of "faith", it would be because I've seen enough evidence for it. This presents somewhat of a paradox to me and I would like other people's opinions on the matter.

I've been told to pray about the matter, but I've not received any divine inspiration as of yet. I've been told that I don't really want answers and maybe that is why I'm not getting them, but if someone really wants answers badly enough, when they receive them, how do they know it's not just their brain filling in the gaps and giving them what they want? How else do you explain why there are so many religions out there and how people can receive "divine inspiration" with completely conflicting messages?

I'm sorry if this comes off as hostile, I really don't mean it to. I am just trying to fully present my viewpoint so that it can be properly discussed.

I just have to say that you should just like my husband. The only difference is that we are just about to start going to church once we get settled in our new community. Anyhow, I hope you find the answers you are looking for. My guess is that you will have to find the answer through prayer. I think that prayer with an open heart takes a lot of practice and patience for some people. I am one of those people. My husband doesn't believe in prayer....it doesn't sound like you do either. I'm not pointing fingers, it's just a struggle especially if someone comes from a nonreligious background. Take your time if you need to. I know my biggest struggle with prayer and faith is letting my guard down completely. It's a stuggle, but I know that is worth working towards. I think it's the only way you can really let the Spirit in. Humbling yourself can be very challenging. I'm dealing with all of it right now!

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by WANDERER

I used to get this chill feeling when walking down a set of stairs at work. A year later I happened to be in the lunchroom chatting to a woman who fell down that particular stairs and she described the whole incident of how she broke her leg and just what a painful mess that was. Intuition? Not really, I guess I picked up subtle cues from people's body language as they went down the stairs.

I view faith as one way of knowing and science as another. They operate under different heuristics. Solving what is truth scientifically or in another discipline involves different methodology.

Solving what is true in terms of faith involves revelation, confidence and trust.
Science uses the words evidence, reason and theory.

I am sorry - perhaps you could explain - how does your having a "chill feeling" and a particular lady falling become connected. I am very skeptical of these situations because they seem to be resolved later.

Now if I could take you to ten houses and you could indicated by that “chill feeling", in which of the ten houses a brutal murder took place – I would be more inclined to give credence to methodologies of heuristics.

The Traveler