How do you define faith?

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by WANDERER

I'd always hold the railing and go down the stairs carefully and avoided the middle bit of the stairs. There was another footpath that I took to using. Completely illogical behaviour. It wasn't a 'feeling' however, I'd made observations on a subconscious level possibly of other people's behaviour who had been there when the accident happened. I'd also interpreted it as illogical and an 'intuition' and therefore silly. And yes, I felt completely ridiculous and would sometimes walk down the middle of the stairs.

The accident had happened a year or two prior (not in the premonition category) and skeptical was my view of it until I chatted to the lady involved. But this is not a story out of Ripley's believe it or Not because I don't claim to have known there was an accident, just that I should be careful. But aside from whether this is believable or not the parallel is not all forms of knowledge have 'substance' and definitely not according to what we call strict science.

I have no definition of how you should know something through faith. But I don't think it should be written off as invalid because it doesn't follow hard scientific processes.

Empirical (history), artistic (literature), interpretative (law), descriptive (accounting), logical (mathematics) or practical (language) : subjective areas of knowledge not based on reproducible experimental data or sometimes called soft sciences. Still valid forms of knowledge but not considered scientifically objective.

Edit/adding: I just don't think science on it's own works as a line of thought against faith, given this situation. Anyway it's an attempt to explain why I think so.

My Wanderer Friend: Thank you for responding. Please do not think that I do not believe you at all even though I am quite skeptical. There has been a lot of research into the “ghost within the machine” of the human mind and the origin of thought or from the scientific or religious perspective – the whisperings of the spirit as many in religion attempt to express. I am also well aware that some things cannot be quantified such as love, joy and anger.

Obviously if your story has any credibility then you are not the origin of some of your thoughts that you entertain. So I would ask you if you are capable of thought generation and if you are – how do you distinguish your thoughts from the foreign thoughts that so easily invade your person beyond your control? How do you know if your conclusion to your dilemma was not planned and planted? And if so – how do you determine if you are being deceived and giving “voice” to something that desires no more than to exercise some kind of control of your conscious cognitive processes.

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Obviously if your story has any credibility then you are not the origin of some of your thoughts that you entertain. So I would ask you if you are capable of thought generation and if you are – how do you distinguish your thoughts from the foreign thoughts that so easily invade your person beyond your control? How do you know if your conclusion to your dilemma was not planned and planted?

And if so – how do you determine if you are being deceived and giving “voice” to something that desires no more than to blah blah blah blah blahs.

How do you know yours are not? I am generating thought as I write this post. You were generating thought as you wrote the post. How do you know your conclusions regarding Wanderer's post were not planned and planted? How do you determine if your are being decieved and giving "voice" to something that desires no more than to exercise some kind of control of your conscious cognitive procesesses?

The obvious answer is because they're not. They are just thoughts. Unless you are in a vegetative state or dead, you are generating thoughts. The thoughts themselves are not evil, and to be concerned about Wanderer's story is to be generating some really ridiculous thoughts of your own.


Elphaba

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by WANDERER

Traveller, are you asking me whether faith needs evidence or proof and what kind of evidence or proof? Yes I think it does. But I think I'll pass on repeated experimental data to get me through life ..I think, some things I'll accept by faith ; ).

Consider Alma's words in the Book of Mormon to a man known as Korihor. Alma 30:42 "thou art possessed with a lying spirit".

Please understand that I am not accusing you of anything similar to what was going on with Korihor. The case you present - it is possible that something was happening for your protection. It is not the proof of these kinds of things that I am probing for. What I am asking is what kind of "fire wall" do you have in place to preserve access? Or is this a matter to which you have no concern?

One of the questions given in this thread is that there are many "opinions" concerning religion and religious ideas. Quite often individuals will hold strong opinions concerning religion and religious ideas that they believe to be truthful and “inspired” of a divine spirit or by some other means to be more inspiried that the opinions of others. My question is – if you are sure you are receiving guidance then how are you sure that it is coming from a divine source?

The Traveler

The Traveler

[havejoy]

To me, faith is a sure and reasonable knowledge of things I can't prove.

[Alaskagain]

DS,
In your opening post, you stated you were not ‘religious’, and then later you state you are an atheist. They are two vastly different stances. One implies that you might believe in God, but do not adhere to the beliefs of any specific religious denomination. The other, of course, denies the existence of God.

As I see it, that is the root of your inability to feel that you have faith, and that you have received no answer to your prayers.

If you do not believe in God, why would you pray? If you do not believe in God, why would you pray and then expect to receive any kind of an answer?

If you are perfectly satisfied within yourself that God does not exist, you likely will not receive an answer confirming that He does indeed exist (according to me). My opinion, and I certainly don’t supersede God here, so I do leave open the possibility of a clear and direct answer to you.

If you do not believe in God, but have a desire to believe He exists, that in and of itself is an expression of faith. (Note that I did not say "If you do not believe in God, but have a desire to know whether He exists.")

If that is the case, and you have that desire, you are expressing faith. You are hoping that He does exist, after all. You may see no evidence of Him right now. But you have the hope. THAT is faith. Build on that little thread.

I commend you for supporting your LDS wife, and attending church with her, even though you do not believe as she does. That is love.

As far as all of the differences in religious beliefs across the world, I think yes, many times people declare their answers to prayers as truth, when in reality it has been "just their brain filling in the gaps and giving them what they want". People can justify or rationalize all manner of actions by saying "God tells me to do this." It doesn’t mean it is true, and it certainly doesn’t make bad things good.

I am not a scholar, scientist, or theologian. I hope I have not stated anything that offends.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by WANDERER

Traveller, I don't believe I was receiving external guidance. Stopping to think about why you are doing something in a particular way is just using common sense. If you slow down in a shopping centre because everyone else around you does and then you happen to see a *caution-wet floor* sign you don't tend to worry about spiritual possession. Slowing down is hardly going to cause harm or be defined as sinful. Attributing your actions towards spiritual influences is a bit of a stretch. Identifying your actions as logical or illogical is sometimes called using 'common sense'.

On religious ideas and a feeling that you are prompted by God or inspired...I think that it is all rather dependent on your current relationship with God. With hope and humility I guess. Currently for me, seeking confirmation is best: prayer, fasting, His word etc. Sometimes it can be pretty clear when you operate outside of what you should be doing...and othertimes not.

Funnily enough, my sister was once told by a guy that God's word was that he marry her. Her reply, "I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to seek confirmation from God on that one." She's been married over a decade now (to someone else LOL).

Good post - There are some thoughts here I would like to pursue but I am not sure there is interest and for my time here; there may be better fish to fry.

The Traveler

[DigitalShadow]

Originally Posted by Alaskagain

DS,
In your opening post, you stated you were not ‘religious’, and then later you state you are an atheist. They are two vastly different stances. One implies that you might believe in God, but do not adhere to the beliefs of any specific religious denomination. The other, of course, denies the existence of God.

As I see it, that is the root of your inability to feel that you have faith, and that you have received no answer to your prayers.

If you do not believe in God, why would you pray? If you do not believe in God, why would you pray and then expect to receive any kind of an answer?

If you are perfectly satisfied within yourself that God does not exist, you likely will not receive an answer confirming that He does indeed exist (according to me). My opinion, and I certainly don’t supersede God here, so I do leave open the possibility of a clear and direct answer to you.

If you do not believe in God, but have a desire to believe He exists, that in and of itself is an expression of faith. (Note that I did not say "If you do not believe in God, but have a desire to know whether He exists.")

If that is the case, and you have that desire, you are expressing faith. You are hoping that He does exist, after all. You may see no evidence of Him right now. But you have the hope. THAT is faith. Build on that little thread.

I commend you for supporting your LDS wife, and attending church with her, even though you do not believe as she does. That is love.

As far as all of the differences in religious beliefs across the world, I think yes, many times people declare their answers to prayers as truth, when in reality it has been "just their brain filling in the gaps and giving them what they want". People can justify or rationalize all manner of actions by saying "God tells me to do this." It doesn’t mean it is true, and it certainly doesn’t make bad things good.

I am not a scholar, scientist, or theologian. I hope I have not stated anything that offends.

I think that maybe you're misunderstanding the word atheist. It has a lot of negative connotations from religious folk so I don't blame you, but really it just literally means not-theist. This is exactly what I meant by not religious. I do not actively deny the possibility of god, I simply don't believe in any of the ones presented to me because there is no evidence.

I hope that clears some things up for you.

[Alaskagain]

Not theist.

Atheist.

Merriam Webster:
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

No negative connotations due to my personal religious belief.

What don't I understand?

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by Alaskagain

Not theist.

Atheist.

Merriam Webster:
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

No negative connotations due to my personal religious belief.

What don't I understand?

Unless I am reading your response to DS wrong, you seem to be upset with him because he is an athiest, and this offends you because of your strong belief in TCOJCOLDS and its profound relationhship God.

If I am not correct, please ignore the next paragraph.

If I am correct, are you also upset with the billions of other people on the planet who don't share your belief in TCOJCOLDS and its profound relationship with God? (In fact, of these who are religious, millions probably worship an undeniably different god.)

BTW, I too feel DS should have made the fact that he was an atheist clear in his OP post. However, I do believe his questions about "faith" were/are genuine.

Elphaba

[Alaskagain]

Dear Elphaba,

You are not correct. I am not "upset" in any way. Nor offended.

DS did not address anything that I wrote, and chose to discuss the meaning of a word instead. And that's perfectly fine.

I just wanted to clear up that I know the meaning of the word "atheist", and I will now add that I do not perceive it to be a word that reflects negatively on any person who would describe themselves as such.

As to all of the other people who live or have lived on this earth are and have been able to worship, or not, as they please/d. I certainly don't think I am "better" than someone who chooses/thinks/believes differently than I do. I don't know how I can prove that to you, except by telling you that I have friends/family of several different faiths and some who are atheists. I still love them and respect their choices, and you can believe me, or not. (I have all I can handle just trying to keep myself straight. I can't, nor would I want, to make their choices for them, too!)

Alaskagain