Religeon and Science for us LDS

[tomk]

Traveler:

I enjoyed reading your post.

You will see me reference a talk by W. Cleon Skousen quite a bit over the coming years:

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement Cronk

Have you read it?


The article speaks more to the "WHAT" we are witnessing when we look at the world around us. Intelligence + Element. That is what constitutes our reality.

All I can say is "I'm a believer" and I'll leave it at that. I'm sure the "speculation police" will be along soon.

I don't know why some people just can't seem to accept God "as He is." I don't know why they won't apply the scientific method in order to come to "know God" like they "know electrons" or "know" the laws of Physics. Think "Alma chapter 32."

We've been blessed (by God) with some marvelous technology in the last 150 years or so. Just imagine if every scientist began their day with prayer, pleading for the Lord to guide them and inspire them! Imagine combining their blessing of intellect and their dedication to methodology (line by line) with God's inspiration!!

From the verse below, I think scientists have a wealth of material with which to apply the "scientific method" to come to know God:

Alma 30: 44
44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.


The evidence that there is a God is all around us! That is what is so funny and so strange and so tragic. Scientists lament that there is no way to "prove" there is a God, but the proof is in the air they breathe, the beating of their heart, even in the electrons and protons (which are universes in themselves).


The problem is having "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" - which is another way of describing the establishment of a friendly disposition towards God, of trying to see His hand in ALL areas of our lives, which breeds humility:


2 Ne. 9: 42
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.


or said another way:

If [THEY] come down in the depths of humility, he will open unto them!!!!


I could keep going and going.



Just a few of my thoughts.

[skalenfehl]

Originally Posted by tomk

All I can say is "I'm a believer" and I'll leave it at that. I'm sure the "speculation police" will be along soon.

He's funny, too!

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by tomk

Traveler:

I enjoyed reading your post.

You will see me reference a talk by W. Cleon Skousen quite a bit over the coming years:

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement Cronk

Have you read it?


The article speaks more to the "WHAT" we are witnessing when we look at the world around us. Intelligence + Element. That is what constitutes our reality.

All I can say is "I'm a believer" and I'll leave it at that. I'm sure the "speculation police" will be along soon.

I don't know why some people just can't seem to accept God "as He is." I don't know why they won't apply the scientific method in order to come to "know God" like they "know electrons" or "know" the laws of Physics. Think "Alma chapter 32."

We've been blessed (by God) with some marvelous technology in the last 150 years or so. Just imagine if every scientist began their day with prayer, pleading for the Lord to guide them and inspire them! Imagine combining their blessing of intellect and their dedication to methodology (line by line) with God's inspiration!!

From the verse below, I think scientists have a wealth of material with which to apply the "scientific method" to come to know God:

Alma 30: 44
44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.


The evidence that there is a God is all around us! That is what is so funny and so strange and so tragic. Scientists lament that there is no way to "prove" there is a God, but the proof is in the air they breathe, the beating of their heart, even in the electrons and protons (which are universes in themselves).


The problem is having "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" - which is another way of describing the establishment of a friendly disposition towards God, of trying to see His hand in ALL areas of our lives, which breeds humility:


2 Ne. 9: 42
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.


or said another way:

If [THEY] come down in the depths of humility, he will open unto them!!!!


I could keep going and going.



Just a few of my thoughts.

Thank you for reading my post. There is a time and a season appointed for all things. At one time of my youth, I played softball. My father who was a very spiritual and devoted man that did not play softball once explained to me that although the scriptures are important there are times to look to and pay attention to other things. He said that while I was playing second base is not the time to be reading the scriptures. He then counseled me not to be so heavenly minded that I am of no earthly use.

If we are to integrate science and religion we must understand both. If we are to expect those expert in the methods of science to try the methods of faith we must also be willing to try the methods of science as an example of how we would like our concepts of faith accepted.

The technical advances that allow us more time to pursue religious things have come about because of the understanding of scientific principles that many religious individuals do not accept; yet they are will willing to enjoy the comfort of the advances. This results in many scientists resenting and looking upon those who focus mostly on that which is religious as hypocrites.

The Traveler

[Stampede]

I Wanted to bring this up too. The idea of an "Outer Darkenss or "Hell" where non shall escape sounds to me like this....

Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[tomk]

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

He's funny, too!

I try.


Not everyone gets my brand of humor.

I am also a bit blunt in expressing what I think.



Tom

[tomk]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Thank you for reading my post. There is a time and a season appointed for all things. At one time of my youth, I played softball. My father who was a very spiritual and devoted man that did not play softball once explained to me that although the scriptures are important there are times to look to and pay attention to other things. He said that while I was playing second base is not the time to be reading the scriptures. He then counseled me not to be so heavenly minded that I am of no earthly use.

If we are to integrate science and religion we must understand both. If we are to expect those expert in the methods of science to try the methods of faith we must also be willing to try the methods of science as an example of how we would like our concepts of faith accepted.

The technical advances that allow us more time to pursue religious things have come about because of the understanding of scientific principles that many religious individuals do not accept; yet they are will willing to enjoy the comfort of the advances. This results in many scientists resenting and looking upon those who focus mostly on that which is religious as hypocrites.

The Traveler

I agree. I am not one of those who shuns science. I am grateful for science!! As you say -- without it we would not have many of the advances we have today. There is no doubt about that. And the scientific method DOES have value.

My only beef with science is that (it is my perception) they exclude from their "method" the One Source that could potentially help them! Imagine if scientists went about what they do with a prayer in their hearts.

I also think it is ironic that, from my point of view, it is God who is inspiring us and powering us from moment to moment anyway. King Benjamin put it better than I ever could:


Mosiah 2: 21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, [AND HAVE YOU NOTICED? WE DO EXACTLY THAT!] ] and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.


Religionists could also be served by not taking the Creation account and other things so literally and narrowly as they do. God works by law, people. He's not up there with a magic wand. He works by means. Yes, He made the Grand Canyon, but by millions of years of erosion and weathering! Science, in my view, opens up a window into the workings of God. They can't help but do this, for God is "in" everything.


Jacob 4: 8
8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.


Alma 30: 44
44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.





I am for a world where science and religion "join forces". I believe they are already joined -- we're just in the process of realizing it, by degrees.

[tomk]

Originally Posted by Stampede

I Wanted to bring this up too. The idea of an "Outer Darkenss or "Hell" where non shall escape sounds to me like this....

Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WARNING: SPECULATION POLICE, CLOSE YOUR EYES:


Based on this book I read:

Obtaining Your Calling & Election

That is indeed where Satan and the Sons of Perdition are headed: A black hole in the universe. They face total dissolution. They will return to their native "raw intelligence" -- perhaps to be scooped-up and begin the journey again -- as my book says "hopefully this time with better results."

Notice the wording the Lord uses when He describes their fate:


from D&C 76:


43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;




Now, if you just take a moment to think about this, the Lord is not saying IT HAS NO END. He is only saying that it is NOT REVEALED UNTO US, UNLESS WE ARE TO SHARE IN SATAN'S FATE.




47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;


HE DOES SHOW THE VISION TO "MANY" BUT STRAIGHTWAY SHUTS IT UP AGAIN.


NOW, WHY WOULD HE DO THAT? I HAVE MY OWN IDEAS, BUT I WON'T GO INTO THAT HERE.



48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by Stampede

I Wanted to bring this up too. The idea of an "Outer Darkenss or "Hell" where non shall escape sounds to me like this....

Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take a closer look at a Neuron...there is something that looms from the center nuclease.

What do you think is the location of those who commit murder like Starlin or Hitler type characters?

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by tomk

WARNING: SPECULATION POLICE, CLOSE YOUR EYES:


Based on this book I read:

Obtaining Your Calling & Election

That is indeed where Satan and the Sons of Perdition are headed: A black hole in the universe. They face total dissolution. They will return to their native "raw intelligence" -- perhaps to be scooped-up and begin the journey again -- as my book says "hopefully this time with better results."

Notice the wording the Lord uses when He describes their fate:


from D&C 76:


43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;




Now, if you just take a moment to think about this, the Lord is not saying IT HAS NO END. He is only saying that it is NOT REVEALED UNTO US, UNLESS WE ARE TO SHARE IN SATAN'S FATE.




47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;


HE DOES SHOW THE VISION TO "MANY" BUT STRAIGHTWAY SHUTS IT UP AGAIN.


NOW, WHY WOULD HE DO THAT? I HAVE MY OWN IDEAS, BUT I WON'T GO INTO THAT HERE.



48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

If it pertains to your personal salvation FATHER will revealed this very truth for a reason. I will say this, there is an end to those who are perdition.

[Stampede]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Take a closer look at a Neuron...there is something that looms from the center nuclease.

What do you think is the location of those who commit murder like Starlin or Hitler type characters?

we are not to judge any of them

you know what? maybe Hitler never had the opportunity to hear the gospel. maybe he was clinically insane? maybe he is taught the gospel in the hereafter and accepted it and repented of his sins?

How would you react if you saw Hitler in the Celestial kingdom?

But according to scripture if he did not accept the gspel he would obtain either the telestial or Terrestrial kingdom