Was there sin in the pre-existance?

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by bert10

I believe, Only in Eden could sin temporarily exist. And our parents did sin in Eden.


Peace be unto you
bert10

That is a incorrect assumption. They only transgressed the law and not sinned.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by Vanhin

I think agency existed in the pre-mortal world, which implies that the choice between good and evil existed as well. If there is no choice, there is no agency (2 Ne. 2:15-16). It follows then that choosing evil constitutes sin; therefore sin existed in the pre-mortal existence. From time to time the scriptures give us a glimpse into this agency and the choices we made then:

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels; (D&C 29:35-37)

But then we have other scriptural accounts that speak of agency as being something given to us as at birth into mortality. To Enoch, the Lord revealed:

...Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency; (Moses 7:32)

I think about it this way.... I know of three births that mankind undergoes in his quest to become like the Father. First, we are begotten spirit sons and daughters of God the Father. As in mortality, at this birth we were probably pure and innocent initially, and received the light of Christ as our guide so that we would know the difference between good and evil. The Guide to the Scriptures defines the light of Christ like this:

Divine energy, power, or influence that proceeds from God through Christ and gives life and light to all things. It is the law by which all things are governed in heaven and on earth (D&C 88: 6-13). It also helps people understand gospel truths and helps to put them on that gospel path which leads to salvation (John 3: 19-21; 12: 46; Alma 26: 15; 32: 35; D&C 93: 28-29, 31-32, 40, 42). (GS, Light of Christ)

The second birth, mortality, is one of those times when our slate is wiped clean and we eventually become accountable for our actions. We bring with us, from our heavenly abode, that divine influence we call the "the light of Christ". One manifestation of the light of Christ is conscience, which helps us make right choices in life (Moro. 7:16).

Thirdly, we are born again when we heed the light of Christ and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by repenting of our sins and by being baptized by water and the Spirit. We are "born again" as sons and daughters of Christ. Interestingly, our past sins are wiped away, and we are like infants clean and pure. This gives new meaning to the Saviors teaching that we must "repent and become as a little child" (3 Ne. 11:37-38). We receive at this point the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which will aid us and sanctify us in our discipleship, if we remain worthy of it. The light of Christ leads us to this end, and remains with us forever. We will continue to increase in light and truth, until that "light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day" (D&C 50:24).

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

Regards,
Vanhin

Remember, Intelligences before acceptance by the FATHER to become what ever life form in meeting their graded self-knowledge were independent of God. There was no sin prior to this earth. Only transgressions and choices based on our free agency.

Unless it is spelled out in the scripture or latter day prophets, there was no sin prior to this earth fall.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

Many have questioned events in the pre-existance on these various threads.

I decided to try my hand at scanning and posting an article by Professor Robert J. Matthews of BYU.

The entire article can be found in the Studies in Scripture series published by Deseret Books.


12
TWO WAYSIN THE WORLD: THE WARFARE
BETWEEN GOD AND SATAN
(2 Nephi 26-30)
ROBERT J. MATTHEWS


The particular segment of Nephi's writings covered in this discussion
must be viewed as only a part of Nephi's larger prophecy
and also as heavily influenced by his intense interest in the writings
of Isaiah. Nephi used plainness in describing two strong forces at
work in the world: the work of God, and the influence of the devil.
This is a general theme of all scripture, the scriptures also promise
that someday the war will be won, that there will be an eventual
triumph of God over the devil- a permanent victory of good over
evil, of the Saints over their persecutors, of the kingdom of God over
the kingdoms of men and of Lucifer. This is the teaching of Isaiah,
Jeremiah, Amos, Ezekiel, and all the prophets. The victory will be
centered in Jesus Christ. These particular chapters from Nephi follow
the same general pattern. Nephi explained the issue with great clarity.
The Standard Works are replete with warnings and observations
that there is a war on the earth (and it has existed from the beginning)
between the principles of righteousness emanating from God and the
performance of evil emanating from the devil. Every righteous principle
from God has its counterfeit counterpart put forth by the devil.
To understand why that warfare exists, we need at least a brief glimpse
of the premortal life.

Our earliest indication of the conflict is recorded in the scriptures
as the "war in heaven," meaning a war that was waged among the
spirit children of God in the premortal life. It began, so far as we
know, with the rebellion of Lucifer against God over a difference
about how God's spirit children (of whom Lucifer was one) could
become like God. (See Moses 4:1-4; Abr. 3:23-28; D&C 76:25-26.)
We do not know how long the war lasted, but we do know something
of the contending armies and the issues. Each side had a major advocate
and many followers. The Father's Firstborn (whom we know
as Jesus Christ) defended and supported the Father's plan of salvation.
Lucifer (who became the devil) wanted some modifications. Fundamentally
the differences were over: (1) the principle of agency,
which is always coupled with individual responsibility, and (2) the
fact that Godhood (with ultimate perfection) can be obtained only
through individual effort and excellence. Jesus stood for the absolute
necessity of these principles; Lucifer opposed them. It was recognized
that if individuals had their agency and if there existed a need for
individual effort, then some would not be saved. Lucifer offered to
save all people, but not by requiring individuals to consciously strive
for excellence. Since he would save them himself, Lucifer wanted
the glory and credit. Jesus defended the Father's plan (the gospel),
which requires agency, individual effort, and accountability.
He gave the glory to the Father. .

The war was severe, and it had eternal consequences. Every kind
of sin (with the possible exception of sins involving death) was.
present in that premortal state, and there were many casualties. Repentance
was in order for all who sinned; and forgiveness in that
premortal life .was available through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience
to the plan of salvation. (D&C 93:38.) This was not a war just
of words and debate and forensics. It was a war of misdeeds, lies,
hatred, pride, jealousy, remorse, envy, cursing, blasphemy, deception,
theft, cajoling, slander, anger, and sins of almost every kind that are
also known in mortality. The issues were so well defined that coexistence
was not possible. Those who wholeheartedly supported
Lucifer's rebellion became like him; and after having sinned beyond
the possibilityof reclamation, they were cast out of heaven and placed
(as spirits) upon the earth, never to have the opportunity to be born
with a body of flesh and bone. The precise number who thus rebelled
we do not know, but the scriptures speak of 'them as a "third part"
of the spirits who were originally scheduled for birth into mortality.
(Rev. 12:4; D&C 29:36.) If a "third part" means one-third, then there
are half as many evil spirits as the remaining two-thirds who are
privileged to come to earth through the birth process and obtain
physical bodies. That is, there are half as many spirits who rebelled
and were cast out as all the mortals who ever have been born or will
be born into this world to the end of the millennium. These rebellious
spirits are "the devil and his angels," and also "vessels of wrath."
(D&C 29:36-37; 76:33.) They are literally devils, forever miserable,
and they are enemies of Christ and of all who align themselves with
Christ. They are enemies of the Father's plan, and, with as many
mortals as they can influence, do the devil's bidding on this earth.
Among the righteous, led by the Savior in that premortal war,
were many notable men and women. The Lord's chief assistant was
Michael, who later came to earth as Adam. There were also many
men and women who are called "the noble and great ones" (Abr.
3:22-23), who are chosen to become the prophets and apostles and
servants of God on this earth. They, with the rest of the two-thirds
of the spirits, are born one by one into mortality. During their mortal
probation, these spirits with their physical bodies soon find that the
war in which they were engaged during the premortal life is raging
here upon the earth also. In the process of being born, the memory
and knowledge of the premortal life is taken away, and so the natural
man and woman know nothing of their situation in relation to this
war. However, when they read the revelations of God, they learn in
a general manner who they are, where they came from, that they
were on the Lord's side in the premortal war, and what their course
of action should be in this mortal sphere. If they do not read or
believe the revelations, the natural man and woman do not perceive
the nature or purpose of their life or their responsibilities, or even that a war exists.

In reality, then, we first became acquainted with the "two ways”
in our premortal life, and it was there also that we first became
acquainted with Jesus Christ and learned that. only in the gospel can
we find the knowledge, the tools, and the power to combat the devil's
program of defeat and enslavement.


There Can Be No Neutral Position

Just as the consequences of the war in heaven were severe and
decisive, so also are the consequences of that war, which is now
transferred to earth, equally severe and decisive. Neither conflict was
a practice session; both are real, and both are of such a nature that
every person is involved and affected. In neither war could there be
a neutral ground. Why is that? Because when a task must be performed
by a certain time; and the consequences are crucial, so-called neutrality
by an able-bodied person is an aid and advantage to the enemy.
Neutrality under such circumstances renders comfort and assistance
to the opposite side. Such feigned neutrality is twice measured, not
only in the help it gives the opposition, but in the lack of help that
could have been given had the person chosen a side. Not to take a
stand is in effect taking a stand for the opposition.

The same principles and issues are:still in operation, and the same
contenders now find themselves on a new battleground (earth) fighting
an old war. It IS made new by its introduction to this world at
the fall of Adam and is renewed for each individual as he or she is
born into mortality. As each of us grows to maturity and begins to
sense the condition's of the world around us, we come to realize that
these two major forces are at work in the world, affecting every soul.
If we have taken the holy scriptures as our guide, we see more clearly
the nature of the conflict and what we as individuals must do about
it.

With this introduction we are ready to pursue a segment of
Nephi's writings as he warns of the devil's work on the earth and
tells of the Lord's plan of salvation and defense for humanity. Among
the things that Nephi makes clear is that the Lord works in plainness,
in truth, and in goodness for the benefit of the world, whereas the
devil deals in deception and cunning, appealing to people's pride and'
physical appetites until he captures their souls in chains and destruction


Robert J. Matthews is professor of ancient scripture and dean of religious
education at Brigham Young University

You need to take this article with caution. Research, pondering, and lengthy prayer is needed.

I do agree on something in which I am privy too; some of us were there to cast out those who opposed the plan and there were many who would not chose the plan. Our mortal live experiences is based on upon our earlier choices. I wish I could be more elaborate but at this point, you can read this from both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young who also discussed this very subject for a reason.

[bert10]

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

bert10....

I'm curious...are you LDS?

So far...I joined the church under President Benson. Where he spent his presidency urging the LDS to come out from under the scourge and judgment that is to come...and encouraged them to receive "The Blessing Hitherto Unknown" by truly living the doctrines in the BOM. And one of those doctrines is to hear God in our hearts.

I usually post more on the promises of Christ concerning ...asking..seeking and knocking.

Peace be unto you
bert10

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Remember, Intelligences before acceptance by the FATHER to become what ever life form in meeting their graded self-knowledge were independent of God.

I don't know what you are talking about. Are you LDS?

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Remember, Intelligences before acceptance by the FATHER to become what ever life form in meeting their graded self-knowledge were independent of God. There was no sin prior to this earth. Only transgressions and choices based on our free agency.

Unless it is spelled out in the scripture or latter day prophets, there was no sin prior to this earth fall.

Actually, I just looked at your profile again, and you are LDS. I guess what perplexes me is what you said concerning intelligences and life forms, etc... is not something I have ever read about in scripture, nor have I heard it taught in any official capacity, but you started out saying "remember", like it is something I should know. Because of that, I won't really comment on that, but I think that you are entitled to speculate on those matters.

The part I do take issue with is your use of the term "intelligence(s)". I am aware that some latter-day saints subscribe to this idea that intelligence refers (in some cases) to an even more basic entity or being that represents a pre-spirit "us". I submit that, that kind of doctrine is not supported by scripture. Perhaps it is implied, or we will one day receive further light and knowledge on the subject, but until then, the term in latter-day scripture, refers to 1) light of truth (light of Christ), 2) spirit son or daughter of God, 3) spirit element. The Guide to the Scriptures supports this view (GS, Intelligence), and I think if there was a 4th meaning of such significance, it would have been listed there.

Many refer to the following passage often to support this idea:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; (Abraham 3:22)

In this passage the term intelligences is referring to definition #2 above, in other words spirit children of God. From verse 22 to the end of the chapter, the grand council in heaven is described. The spirits were organized together so that the Plan of Salvation could be revealed to them.

But we are talking about sin, so I won't waste no more time on that pet peave of mine.

The definition of sin is: "Willful disobedience to God’s commandments." (GS, Sin).

LDS.org Topic Definition states: "To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17). (Topic, Sin)

I'm pretty sure that what Lucifer and the 3rd of the host of heaven did qualifies as sin. I'll respect your opinion on this matter, but I'm going to go with my original answer, since Satan is the author of all sin (Helaman 6:26-31). The scriptures pretty plainly spell it out as far as I am concerned.

Regards,
Vanhin

[tomk]

Originally Posted by Vanhin

Actually, I just looked at your profile again, and you are LDS. I guess what perplexes me is what you said concerning intelligences and life forms, etc... is not something I have ever read about in scripture, nor have I heard it taught in any official capacity, but you started out saying "remember", like it is something I should know. Because of that, I won't really comment on that, but I think that you are entitled to speculate on those matters.

The part I do take issue with is your use of the term "intelligence(s)". I am aware that some latter-day saints subscribe to this idea that intelligence refers (in some cases) to an even more basic entity or being that represents a pre-spirit "us". I submit that, that kind of doctrine is not supported by scripture. Perhaps it is implied, or we will one day receive further light and knowledge on the subject, but until then, the term in latter-day scripture, refers to 1) light of truth (light of Christ), 2) spirit son or daughter of God, 3) spirit element. The Guide to the Scriptures supports this view (GS, Intelligence), and I think if there was a 4th meaning of such significance, it would have been listed there.

Many refer to the following passage often to support this idea:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; (Abraham 3:22)

In this passage the term intelligences is referring to definition #2 above, in other words spirit children of God. From verse 22 to the end of the chapter, the grand council in heaven is described. The spirits were organized together so that the Plan of Salvation could be revealed to them.

But we are talking about sin, so I won't waste no more time on that pet peave of mine.

The definition of sin is: "Willful disobedience to God’s commandments." (GS, Sin).

LDS.org Topic Definition states: "To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17). (Topic, Sin)

I'm pretty sure that what Lucifer and the 3rd of the host of heaven did qualifies as sin. I'll respect your opinion on this matter, but I'm going to go with my original answer, since Satan is the author of all sin (Helaman 6:26-31). The scriptures pretty plainly spell it out as far as I am concerned.

Regards,
Vanhin

This talk may help you understand Hemidakota's frame of reference regarding "organized intelligences"


Skousen Talk on Atonement / Intelligences

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by tomk

This talk may help you understand Hemidakota's frame of reference regarding "organized intelligences"


Skousen Talk on Atonement / Intelligences

I'm a fan on W. Cleon Skousen, and his works have given me all kinds of interesting things to think about over the years. It is true that our spirit bodies are organized intelligence, which would be definition #3, spirit element. That would be in harmony with the scriptures and doctrine of the Church. Thanks for the link.

Man is spirit. That is what we are at our most basic level. Spirit and intelligence are often synonyms in latter-day scripture. Joseph Smith taught many things about this topic. The Church has added a few of his teachings in the new manual, which lends validity to at least some of it. He said:

... I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. (JS Manual, The Plan of Salvation)

Throughout this particular address, he continues to use spirit and intelligence interchangeably.

I need to go because intelligences are organized to meet this morning before church, and I am one of them.

Regards,
Vanhin

[bert10]

""Actually, I just looked at your profile again, and you are LDS. I guess what perplexes me is what you said concerning intelligences and life forms, etc... is not something I have ever read about in scripture, nor have I heard it taught in any official capacity, but you started out saying "remember", like it is something I should know. Because of that, I won't really comment on that, but I think that you are entitled to speculate on those matters.""

Of course you have read many things in scriptures....only you have not noticed them. Perhaps it is God's way to hide things from those who are are not ready to receive them. However, the main goal for all of us is to be taught of God and not of by men. For only they who have heard and learned from the Father can come unto Christ. I will not go into this at this time why this is necessary however, I will put down the bible verse. It is written in the prophets...at least it was before it was removed. They shall all be taught of God.

John 6:45 - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

To continue on:

You have been given many clues in the book of Mormon as well as in the bible. In D&C for example you are given much more on the Spirit of life than what is in the bible.

For example that in D&C you are given that the Spirit [Light] of Christ is in all things, above all things, below all things, around all things and in all things etc. Therefore all things that exist have the Light of Christ. I will stop here with this line of reasoning.

In the bible there are a couple of references that has escaped the pen of the scribes for example....

1: Joshua 24:27 - And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.

2: Habakkuk 2:11 - For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.

Enochian Knowledge.

3aniel 4:13 - I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

As you can see all things have life even if sciences have not found this out yet. How else could a mountain move into the sea if it has not the intelligence necessary to obey us?

4:Luke 19:40 - And He answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. [Cry out Spiritually as stones do not have physical mouths]

5: and of course the famous last address of Moses who called out on the heavens and the earth to testify that He had delivered Israel the Whole Law of God.....Deuteronomy 32:1 - GIVE ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Yet they still corrupted themselves as soon as he left.

It is as far as I wish to go here as well.
-----------------------------------------------------
""The part I do take issue with is your use of the term "intelligence(s)". I am aware that some latter-day saints subscribe to this idea that intelligence refers (in some cases) to an even more basic entity or being that represents a pre-spirit "us". I submit that, that kind of doctrine is not supported by scripture. Perhaps it is implied, or we will one day receive further light and knowledge on the subject, but until then, the term in latter-day scripture, refers to 1) light of truth (light of Christ), 2) spirit son or daughter of God, 3) spirit element. The Guide to the Scriptures supports this view (GS, Intelligence), and I think if there was a 4th meaning of such significance, it would have been listed there.""

Other than the bible verses which I have shared with you. The information that allows us to understand and believe needs to come from the Spiritual. And only they who have a Testimony of Jesus can be taught these things. For to have a testimony of Jesus is to also have the Spirit of prophecy. A man cannot have either one without the other. Paul also taught that the Spiritual can only be compared and understood by the Spiritual.

Revelation 19:10 - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
--------------------------------------------

Many refer to the following passage often to support this idea:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; (Abraham 3:22)

In this passage the term intelligences is referring to definition #2 above, in other words spirit children of God. From verse 22 to the end of the chapter, the grand council in heaven is described. The spirits were organized

But we are talking about sin, so I won't waste no more time on that pet peave of mine.

The definition of sin is: "Willful disobedience to God’s commandments." (GS, Sin).

LDS.org Topic Definition states: "To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17). (Topic, Sin)

I'm pretty sure that what Lucifer and the 3rd of the host of heaven did qualifies as sin. I'll respect your opinion on this matter, but I'm going to go with my original answer, since Satan is the author of all sin (Helaman 6:26-31). The scriptures pretty plainly spell it out as far as I am concerned.

Regards,
Vanhin[/quote]
together so that the Plan of Salvation could be revealed to them. ""

Sin is transgression of the law...when there is no law given there is no transgression and so therefore no wrath. I have a different understanding on things.

However, I do know one thing...that if a man is taught of God...he will know more than those who rely on the bible/BOM for information. For the path of perfection can only be traveled on by those who hear God in their hearts and these are going to be taught the hidden manna [Revelation] until they receive a fulness of it. Then they shall receive a white stone and a new name. It is slow going.

To the Christians I teach knowing about God is far different than actually knowing God.


Peace be unto you
bert10

[Vanhin]

bert10,

I hear you. Thanks for the post.

Vanhin