Anti-Mormons

[mike_uk]

Originally Posted by jimuk

Maurice, Do you not want a prophet on the earth, do you not feel it in your heart that with a prophet we/you have direct contact with heavenly father through these prophets.
Joseph smith was such a prophet, and from the word go, as soon as he told people about his visitation he was persecuted, people would cross to the other side of the street when they see him coming, pretty tough going for a young lad of 15yrs dont you think, a lot to take onto such a young boys shoulders.
rameumptom says it all in his post, so please look into your heart, and i would plead with you in the name of Jesus christ to ask your father in heaven if Brother Joseph was a prophet.
If you ask, really wanting, needing to know, with no bitterness, your father will let it be known to you by the spirit.
It is such a simple way of of finding out.

Jim, its really not that simple.

There was a time when i believed Joseph to be a prophet of God. However my own research through early church history really sent my world crashing down and truth be told I have not got over it. The church was my life.

With this new found knowledge I pleaded with Heavenly Father if Jospeh was indeed a prophet. All I felt was emptiness, dispair and darkness leading me to one conclusion and that is "imo" he cannot be a prophet.

Some of us here have and can hadle this information and just pretend it never happened or that we dont fully understand or that it was just made up trash to spoil Jospeh's name. But a great deal of it isnt lies or slander and I cannot see how I could possibly change my mind or be convinced otherwise about how I feel about Joseph. Should I just pretend they never happened to or brush them under a carpet?

I for one cannot accept the things he did as commandments from god. If you can and it makes you happy then more power to you.

[VisionOfLehi]

But people can believe that God slew the firstborn children of Egypt?

[Jenamarie]

I think Joseph Smith has a huge disadvantage to ancient prophets: very many details of his personal life were preserved, his history is recent, and he was American. There seems to be a lot of leeway given to the mistakes of the ancient Prophets living in foreign lands in different times. We don't know much about their childhoods, or what their pre-Apostolic/Prophet adult lives were like, or what they did during their "off" times when they weren't actively preaching God's word. One of the apostles *denied Christ three times* and yet he is still very much reveered in Christendom. We don't know if Isaiah ever lost his temper. We DO know that Noah got so smashing drunk that he didn't realize it was his own daughters he has having sex with, yet I never hear Christians decrying his claim to Prophethood as I'm about 99.9% sure would be the case if it had been something Joseph had done.

Obviously Joseph wasn't perfect. He screwed up on more than one occasion. But I keep coming back to the thought of: do his mistakes negate his claim to Prophethood? God has such Spiritually fragile, highly rebellious material to work with in building His Kingdom here on Earth. To say that His chosen Servents would never do something that He didn't approve of is setting ourselves up to rejecting all of the Written Word, simply because of the mistakes of His messengers.

Of course that doesn't mean that everyone's claim to Prophethood is valid, but we can't look solely at the character of the messenger in determining the validity of their claim. Jesus Himself was accused of being a deranged alcoholic.

[jimuk]

Hi Mike, come on, this guy is human and capable of human fail abilities ( if thay are the correct words lol) He is not the first and not the last to make mistakes, whatever you think of him he was a prophet of god, prophets throughout the scriptures made mistakes, and are rebuked for doing so.
You must ask yourself "why is Joseph himself used as a weapon against the very church he was commanded to reestablish on the earth" its not rocket science, it is Satan using the multitudes to try to destroy the true church of Jesus Christ.

As i have said many times, If this church is so wrong then wouldent it be easier for Satan to just leave us alone and let us get on with it, of course he would, for we would be sealing our own fate, much easier for him to go after some other religion that was drawing to near to heavenly father, am i the only one to see this lol.

Whatever you think of Joseph, it needent turn you against the good works that the prophets and other saints continue to do in the world, no need to utter bad things towards Jesus's church.

Thanks for listening Mike

[mike_uk]

Hi Jim

Im not against the saints as people as I have said previously. If I did I would have serious problems and probably divorce. Not to mention lack of friends

My problems are not the members, most I know are awesome people and would drop everything to help at a moments notice. Most are genuinely christ like people and care for me no matter what I feel about the church. I really mean that Jim.

Have you actually researched this stuff for yourself. Scrutinized it as we have been advised to by the prophets of old? Perhaps you should to get a better picture as to why I and others have come to these conclusions and find it so hard to accept.

You know guys, I never set out to destroy my faith on purpose, had no need to as I was more than happy. However one thing lead to another, I built up a hefty amount of evidence and a whole host of skeletons and I peronally cannot ignore it and hope it goes away becasue it won't.

But what I do know is that somehow I will have to move on and let go becasue this whole thing is destroying me and I am unable to let it go. I have destroyed my wifes teenage dream of marrying a good LDS priesthood holder that will take her back to heavenly father. Ive broken her heart along with my 7 year old daughter when I told her last weak that I would not be able to baptise her, dam that hurt so much. I wanted to just die when she reminded when, trying to hold back her tears "that you baptised (eldest daughter) last year".

No matter what people say to me, I blame Joseph Smith for this hurt.

Sorry for the rant everyone. Its just whats going on with me

[VisionOfLehi]

I've heard plenty about Joseph Smith, read the scrutiny. Heard what people have to say.

And, well, it was always a non-issue for me.

Sorry about your problem, I wish I could understand better and offer some advice.

[KosherXMorg]

I am so glad I have realized the gift the the Lord gave us was the Book of Mormon, not Joseph Smith. I have freedom to believe what it tells me now and not to be bound down by the false teachings and ideas of those who have claimed to be prophets or apostles. I wish you, MikeUK, would see the value in the Book of Mormon and not reject it because of Joseph sins. There are other churches that use it that are not bound to LDS traditions, that see it for the gift it is and acknowledge the sins the the early leaders.

Hi all,

I am not confident that my perspective is desired but I thought I would offer it and see what follows.

It has been VERY difficult for me to read the last several posts.
( especially when one is going through a rough period ) ( YOU KNOW WE ALL DO AS BROKEN PEOPLE)

Love ? Kindness ? extended a hand when needed? compassion for eachother ?

Sorry, but I saw alot of " would rather have this than that " " nana nana na na " ,
"My hurt is worse then your hurt " , VERY HARD READING

At any rate, that's my take for what it's worth

God bless,
Carl

[OtterPop]

Originally Posted by candyprpl

Quote by Otterpop
"In my own case, I left the Church for spiritual reasons, gradually and gently by God. I was led to a richer belief and a richer life outside Mormonism. You could say I was "deconverted" after having been born into Mormonism. And Moroni 10 certainly had a lot to do with it."

I'm curious about this statement and was wondering if you could explain what happened. . . . So bottom line -- I'm just curious -- I am not interested in telling you your decision is wrong because it goes against what I believe.

Care to explain for yourself?

This is a really good thread. I haven't logged in since Sunday because I have had a very busy week at work and have been working overtime to get everything done.

It is not easy to explain in this kind of setting how I came to be an exMormon, and my own understanding of how my spiritual life has unfolded (and continues to unfold) evolves as I mature.

I can tell you exactly how Moroni 10 came into it, and what my very first step out of the LDS church was -- though I certainly didn't know it at the time.

When I was 15, I read the Book of Mormon for the first time. I read it in conjunction with home-study seminary. I remember the chart I had from one of my seminary workbooks: block letters spelling out "I've read the Book of Mormon," divided into 239 small blocks. As I read each chapter, I filled in the block with my yellow highlighter.

I had thought reading the Book Mormon would be kind of boring. I had always gotten stuck in the Isaiah chapters of 2nd Nephi before. But I discovered that after 2nd Nephi, it wasn't hard. It really does contain epic stories, arresting images of events, people, and places. I was comfortable with the spiritual teachings, and had planned to read the Book of Mormon for a long time. It was finally reaching a very important goal.

I finished the Book of Mormon mid-week, and I decided that after church the next Sunday I would spend some time alone and follow Moroni's counsel in Moroni 10:3-5. (I don't have to look up the scriptural reference, even after all these years.) That afternoon, I knelt down beside my bed, as I had so many times before. I had received a lot of guidance through prayers, and I had absolute faith that I would receive a witness by the Holy Ghost of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I prayed sincerely and with humility and with an open heart. And what happened was . . .

Nothing.

It is the closest I had ever come to having a sense of a "stupor of thought." Many years later, I realized that this experience broke my heart. It is absolutely one of the most painful and confusing experiences of my life.

But please don't think I concluded the BoM was untrue or that the Church wasn't true. No, I concluded that there was something wrong with me or with how I had approached Moroni's promise. I had faith in the Church; it was the foundation of everything I believed and everything I planned to do in my life. I had always been taught to pray that the the BoM was true -- not to pray about whether it was true. That it wasn't true was genuinely an unthinkable thought to me then.

And please don't think I was expecting a "sign." I had truly expected only a quiet sense that this was right -- the same kind of quiet guidance I typically had in answer to prayers on things I had "studied out in my mind."

I never got that sense about the BoM or the truthfulness of the Church. I had guidance in many other things, even a couple of answer to prayers that were fairly dramatic and showed stunning synchronicity.

But never to that prayer about the very cornerstone of Mormonism. I kept attending church, and believing, and praying, and journaling, and having callings, and doing service projects, and attending seminary, and going to stake dances, and . . . everything. I attended BYU for 7 years, and when I did stop attending church knowing that I would never go back, I was a temple-recommend-worthy adult who had never even tasted coffee.

In those 12 years, I did a lot of searching and soul-searching, and had a lot of answers to prayers and a lot of spiritual guidance -- and it all led me out of the LDS Church.

That's my testimony of my experience with the Book of Mormon.

[OtterPop]

Originally Posted by Vort

Four families in six years = an average of one family every 18 months. A shameful occurrence, to be sure; but given that you are living in a city that is probably a third Mormon and that you are surrounded by Latter-day Saints, meeting one bad apple (or family) every 18 months should not be overly surprising.


Like, for example, if they're unfriendly to you when they find out you're not LDS?


4 times in 6 years != common.

Vort,

You're doing a good job of trying to dismiss a valid complaint about common -- yes, common -- Mormon behavior that goes directly counter to what GBH told members to do. And if I know that he gave a talk on this very thing, it has to be common knowledge among Mormons in Utah, because I read it in the Salt Lake Tribune.

I have had several friends who are non-members with school-age children express puzzlement at the number of their kids' friend who could no longer play at their house because the friends' parents found out they are "non-members."

My father was in the army when I was growing up. We lived a number of different places, including the deep South, and I was never barred from being friends with anyone because of my religion. Not once in 17 years. I think fours time is a LOT for such weird behavior.