Anti-Mormons

[bytor2112]

What I find most interesting is the fact that they "know" what we believe, better than we do. Even when we explain what we believe, they are like...no, unuh, you believe this.

[bytor2112]

Another thing that I find interesting is that they can't comprehend that the Mysteries of God are endless. Or that there are actually more pieces of the puzzle that they realize and that salvation or Eternal life actually have a few requirements in order to obtain or that the beauty of the BOM is that it proves that Jesus is the Christ and adds a broader foundation to and explains further the Bible. Or that God can still speak to his children through the mouth of Prophets, ancient and modern.

[Jenamarie]

I think another thing that causes misunderstanding is the assumption by Christians, looking at our doctrine through their traditional-Christian eyes, see our need to be "perfect" as a sure-fire route to Hell. Because their belief in the afterlife is very black & white (Heaven or Hell) it's difficult for them to grasp that even if someone falls short of the "ideal" according to LDS theology, they're *still* saved from Eternal Damnation through faith in Christ. They think our admonition to keep trying means we believe that our Salvation from Hell isn't yet complete. But even though we may not achieve Celestial Glory, we will still recieve *some* reward. I hear many traditional-Christians talking about how their works don't save them, but do earn them greater "rewards" or nicer "mansions" in Heaven, and I want to say BINGO! LDS theology right there!

[ktfords]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

What I find most interesting is the fact that they "know" what we believe, better than we do. Even when we explain what we believe, they are like...no, unuh, you believe this.

A few posts ago [QUOTE=Vanhin;233775], I was asked what I believe.

Isn't that what Vanhin did to me?

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by Jenamarie

I think another thing that causes misunderstanding is the assumption by Christians, looking at our doctrine through their traditional-Christian eyes, see our need to be "perfect" as a sure-fire route to Hell. Because their belief in the afterlife is very black & white (Heaven or Hell) it's difficult for them to grasp that even if someone falls short of the "ideal" according to LDS theology, they're *still* saved from Eternal Damnation through faith in Christ. They think our admonition to keep trying means we believe that our Salvation from Hell isn't yet complete. But even though we may not achieve Celestial Glory, we will still recieve *some* reward. I hear many traditional-Christians talking about how their works don't save them, but do earn them greater "rewards" or nicer "mansions" in Heaven, and I want to say BINGO! LDS theology right there!

Or that if we do fall short, that because of the Atonement, we can repent and still recieve Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom!!

[bytor2112]

My take on this is the following:

I think he was just explaining his understanding of it. He wasn't saying,"no way Ktfords, here is what you guys really believe...."

[funkymonkey]

Originally Posted by ktfords

In the last six years I have been in SLC. I have had 4 different families deny my children a chance to play with their children (before this question, everything went great for weeks) , this of course happened after this question, "are you lds"? All I would say is "no, were not", nothing else. Next, day my kids have been told by their new friends they can't play anymore.

Hi KT.
I don't think how you were treated was fair or right at all.

On the other side of the coin, I have lived in lots of places around the country and I get asked "Are you Mormon?" and I say "yes", and then they never talk to me again.... Friends that we have had for years.
I have also been turned down for jobs because I was Mormon (yes, they actually ask that question in interviews, and yes I know that's illeagal).
People see "Utah" on my husband's resume and they immediately ask if he's mormon...then the interview goes south real quick.
It goes both ways...I am judged constantly because I am Mormon, I am descriminated against because I am Mormon. Does it make it right? No. But I try to understand others and change the only thing I can...change how I act, and not descriminate.


I personally believe that it is the faith that is perfect, the people are most definintely not.

My roommates would take me to church and I have to admit I was a synical little bugger just looking for reasons to be offended, or put off, or just anything to prove to myself that this was not for me. I was fighting what I felt and using the imperfections of everyone around me as a reason for not going or having to participate.

But then I tried just being honest with myself and then realized that my relationship is with God and not with anyone else at church. So my relationship with God grew and grew and then I later realized that everyone else at church is struggling and as screwed up as I am. (Doesn't mean that a lot of them don't bother me a lot of the time) But I don't let it interrupt my realtionship with God.
I am working on my faith for myself...and have decided to not let anyone else's wierd comments or actions (that they probably didn't mean to offend me anyway) impede my own relationship with God.

Sorry so long! Just some things to think about.
God speed KT.

[funkymonkey]

KT,
I like this article by David Bednar
It's got a couple invitations/challenges at the bottom.

There is a lot of power in anger, but there is also a lot of power in love.

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by ktfords

Vanhin,

I will address the first one of them – Perfection. It appears that “Vanhin” has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace. Total Perfection. ( III Nephi 12:48 – {Essentially the same as Matt 5:48}, I Nephi 3:7, And D&C 1:31. Here is another perfection verse: - Moroni 10:32-

...
I should remind any reader that the most famous LDS scripture on grace is missing from this list. II Nephi 25:23 – “… for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” I would like to ask Vanhin a most important question, “Have you done all you can do?” and a related question, “When have you stopped sinning – become perfect?” and “How often do you repent?” Another question, “Since the Lord promised you that he would prepare a way that you can accomplish the thing that he commandeth – to be perfect – when are you going to receive his way/gift and stop sinning/repenting?” Remember, If you are still repenting - you are still sinning and have not become perfect.

ktfords,

I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me? Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us? I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine. I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is. Consider the words of the Savior:

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 17:16-17)

It is in living the commandments that true understanding or knowledge is obtained. This is at the heart of our mortal experience, and this seems to be the principle that eludes you in this discussion. Let me enlighten you on a couple of key factors when trying to understand Mormon doctrine.

1) We really, and I mean for real, do believe that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God the Eternal Father. This is not just a metaphor to us, it is a reality. He is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and is all powerful, all loving, and present everywhere through his Spirit. He also has a glorified, perfect, and tangible body of flesh and bone.

2) As children of God, we have the potential to "grow up" and be like Him. This earthly experience is part of our Heavenly Father's plan for us to reach that end. A fundamental part of this plan is our agency to choose for ourselves.

3) We come to earth to gain bodies for ourselves, and to progress spiritually by having opportunities to choose for ourselves between good and evil. As both a blessing and a protection, we are to complete this experience without a remembrance of our former lives in the premortal world, and thus we are to live by faith.

4) Because of our condition in mortality, we sometimes make wrong choices and sin. Sin makes us unworthy to return to the presence of Father. We must become clean of our sins, but we lack the power or the grace to satisfy the demands of perfect justice. In other words, we cannot become clean on our own merits alone.

5) Also, because the bodies we now have are mortal, we will lose them at death, and would not be able to achieve one of the purposes that we came here for.

6) A loving, all powerful, all knowing God, knew this would happen. So, he provided a Savior to Atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, who under the direction of the Father created the heavens and the earth, was appointed to be the Savior. God himself atoned for the sins of the world.

7) Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected and receive immortal bodies, never to die again. We will be brought before the judgement bar of Christ, who not only is the Creator and the Redeemer, but is also the Judge of mankind. There we will be judged according to our works, words, thoughts, and hearts, and we will receive a just and merciful reward in the mansions of our Father.

8) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become clean of our sins before that day of judgement. The Atonement enables us the ability to repent. Without the atonement, no amount of pleading, restitution, confession, or forsaking would save us from our fallen state. The fact that we can repent at all is made possible because of the merits of Christ.

This last point is what is relevant to this discussion. The ultimate meaning of us becoming perfect, like our Father in Heaven, and Jesus Christ is perfect, is arrived at after the resurrection, when we enter the presence of our God, with our immortal glorified bodies, having been made clean by the blood of the Lamb. It is at the point of our judgement that the question of whether we have done everything we could do must be answered.

Because this life is a learning experience, we will not be deprived of our chance to learn. That fundamental agency that I mentioned above, is respected by God. He allows us to choose damnation or eternal life. By following the teachings of Jesus Christ, and because of his Atonement, we can escape the awful condition we have brought upon ourselves through transgression, but we must choose it ourselves. We must, as Paul taught, "work out" our "salvation with fear and trembling" before the Lord (Philip. 2:12). We must qualify for exaltation by making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord, starting with baptism. We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ through repentance and obedience for the remainder of our lives after our baptism.

God is not going to do it for us. He has done everything for us already without taking away our agency. We are learning vital lessons that can only be learned in this condition, and we are learning to become like our Father. It's just like parenthood in this life. There comes a time when we must let our children choose for themselves, or they will never truly learn or come to know anything on their own. But none of this would be possible without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. So, we owe it all to him. We are happy to work, and are happy to progress. It brings us great joy to have this opportunity, and we have our Father and his Christ to thank for it.

Sincerely,
Vanhin

[jimuk]

Originally Posted by Vanhin

ktfords,

I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me? Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us? I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine. I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is. Consider the words of the Savior:

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 17:16-17)

It is in living the commandments that true understanding or knowledge is obtained. This is at the heart of our mortal experience, and this seems to be the principle that eludes you in this discussion. Let me enlighten you on a couple of key factors when trying to understand Mormon doctrine.

1) We really, and I mean for real, do believe that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God the Eternal Father. This is not just a metaphor to us, it is a reality. He is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and is all powerful, all loving, and present everywhere through his Spirit. He also has a glorified, perfect, and tangible body of flesh and bone.

2) As children of God, we have the potential to "grow up" and be like Him. This earthly experience is part of our Heavenly Father's plan for us to reach that end. A fundamental part of this plan is our agency to choose for ourselves.

3) We come to earth to gain bodies for ourselves, and to progress spiritually by having opportunities to choose for ourselves between good and evil. As both a blessing and a protection, we are to complete this experience without a remembrance of our former lives in the premortal world, and thus we are to live by faith.

4) Because of our condition in mortality, we sometimes make wrong choices and sin. Sin makes us unworthy to return to the presence of Father. We must become clean of our sins, but we lack the power or the grace to satisfy the demands of perfect justice. In other words, we cannot become clean on our own merits alone.

5) Also, because the bodies we now have are mortal, we will lose them at death, and would not be able to achieve one of the purposes that we came here for.

6) A loving, all powerful, all knowing God, knew this would happen. So, he provided a Savior to Atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, who under the direction of the Father created the heavens and the earth, was appointed to be the Savior. God himself atoned for the sins of the world.

7) Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected and receive immortal bodies, never to die again. We will be brought before the judgement bar of Christ, who not only is the Creator and the Redeemer, but is also the Judge of mankind. There we will be judged according to our works, words, thoughts, and hearts, and we will receive a just and merciful reward in the mansions of our Father.

8) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become clean of our sins before that day of judgement. The Atonement enables us the ability to repent. Without the atonement, no amount of pleading, restitution, confession, or forsaking would save us from our fallen state. The fact that we can repent at all is made possible because of the merits of Christ.

This last point is what is relevant to this discussion. The ultimate meaning of us becoming perfect, like our Father in Heaven, and Jesus Christ is perfect, is arrived at after the resurrection, when we enter the presence of our God, with our immortal glorified bodies, having been made clean by the blood of the Lamb. It is at the point of our judgement that the question of whether we have done everything we could do must be answered.

Because this life is a learning experience, we will not be deprived of our chance to learn. That fundamental agency that I mentioned above, is respected by God. He allows us to choose damnation or eternal life. By following the teachings of Jesus Christ, and because of his Atonement, we can escape the awful condition we have brought upon ourselves through transgression, but we must choose it ourselves. We must, as Paul taught, "work out" our "salvation with fear and trembling" before the Lord (Philip. 2:12). We must qualify for exaltation by making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord, starting with baptism. We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ through repentance and obedience for the remainder of our lives after our baptism.

God is not going to do it for us. He has done everything for us already without taking away our agency. We are learning vital lessons that can only be learned in this condition, and we are learning to become like our Father. It's just like parenthood in this life. There comes a time when we must let our children choose for themselves, or they will never truly learn or come to know anything on their own. But none of this would be possible without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. So, we owe it all to him. We are happy to work, and are happy to progress. It brings us great joy to have this opportunity, and we have our Father and his Christ to thank for it.

Sincerely,
Vanhin

Phew its hard being a mormon lol Loving our heavenly father so much and striving to do his will.

I tell you one thing, if i was a member of any other faith and read the below statement it would defenitly make me feel better knowing that i was not going to be spending eternity in a pit of fire lol.

7) Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected and receive immortal bodies, never to die again. We will be brought before the judgement bar of Christ, who not only is the Creator and the Redeemer, but is also the Judge of mankind. There we will be judged according to our works, words, thoughts, and hearts, and we will receive a just and merciful reward in the mansions of our Father.