Anti-Mormons

[ktfords]

Originally Posted by Jenamarie

ktfords: I would say that you do not understand "Mormon" Grace. What that 2nd Nephi scripture means isn't that we have a set level of "do'ing" before we can recieve Grace, it's that after all we can do WE STILL NEED GRACE. Of COURSE we will never "do" enough, but that doesn't negate our requirement to "do". Christ makes up for the 99.999999999(not enough 9's)% of the "do'ing" that we will inevitably fail at, but we are still commanded to do our best. We'd remain pretty stagnant in our development if we didn't constantly try to live closer to the Lord's standards, and the Lord wants us to reach the potential, through the power of His Holy Spirit, that He knows we're capable of reaching. We only "fail" when we fail to rely on our Savior to accomplish the "do'ing". I think every Christian would agree that it is only through Christ that we can accomplish any good in this world.

And if I may ask: have you read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover for yourself?

If you will notice, I never mentioned a "SET LEVEL" because the text doesn't say that. Don't accuse me of something I didn't say. I merely quoted II Nephi 25:23. If you don't like what it says get out of Mormonism. If you are going to stay in, then just believe what is says. Don't try to change the words or the meaning. Many people read the Book of Mormon and don't pay attention to what it says. Again IT SAYS that you get grace AFTER ALL you CAN do. If you are honest, you will admit that you are not perfect and can do more - every day. Just like me, YOU WILL NEVER qualify for Grace according to II Nephi 25:23.

[ktfords]

Originally Posted by Vanhin

ktfords,

I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me? Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us? I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine. I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is. Consider the words of the Savior:

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 17:16-17)

It is in living the commandments that true understanding or knowledge is obtained. This is at the heart of our mortal experience, and this seems to be the principle that eludes you in this discussion. Let me enlighten you on a couple of key factors when trying to understand Mormon doctrine.

1) We really, and I mean for real, do believe that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God the Eternal Father. This is not just a metaphor to us, it is a reality. He is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and is all powerful, all loving, and present everywhere through his Spirit. He also has a glorified, perfect, and tangible body of flesh and bone.

2) As children of God, we have the potential to "grow up" and be like Him. This earthly experience is part of our Heavenly Father's plan for us to reach that end. A fundamental part of this plan is our agency to choose for ourselves.

3) We come to earth to gain bodies for ourselves, and to progress spiritually by having opportunities to choose for ourselves between good and evil. As both a blessing and a protection, we are to complete this experience without a remembrance of our former lives in the premortal world, and thus we are to live by faith.

4) Because of our condition in mortality, we sometimes make wrong choices and sin. Sin makes us unworthy to return to the presence of Father. We must become clean of our sins, but we lack the power or the grace to satisfy the demands of perfect justice. In other words, we cannot become clean on our own merits alone.

5) Also, because the bodies we now have are mortal, we will lose them at death, and would not be able to achieve one of the purposes that we came here for.

6) A loving, all powerful, all knowing God, knew this would happen. So, he provided a Savior to Atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, who under the direction of the Father created the heavens and the earth, was appointed to be the Savior. God himself atoned for the sins of the world.

7) Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected and receive immortal bodies, never to die again. We will be brought before the judgement bar of Christ, who not only is the Creator and the Redeemer, but is also the Judge of mankind. There we will be judged according to our works, words, thoughts, and hearts, and we will receive a just and merciful reward in the mansions of our Father.

8) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become clean of our sins before that day of judgement. The Atonement enables us the ability to repent. Without the atonement, no amount of pleading, restitution, confession, or forsaking would save us from our fallen state. The fact that we can repent at all is made possible because of the merits of Christ.

This last point is what is relevant to this discussion. The ultimate meaning of us becoming perfect, like our Father in Heaven, and Jesus Christ is perfect, is arrived at after the resurrection, when we enter the presence of our God, with our immortal glorified bodies, having been made clean by the blood of the Lamb. It is at the point of our judgement that the question of whether we have done everything we could do must be answered.

Because this life is a learning experience, we will not be deprived of our chance to learn. That fundamental agency that I mentioned above, is respected by God. He allows us to choose damnation or eternal life. By following the teachings of Jesus Christ, and because of his Atonement, we can escape the awful condition we have brought upon ourselves through transgression, but we must choose it ourselves. We must, as Paul taught, "work out" our "salvation with fear and trembling" before the Lord (Philip. 2:12). We must qualify for exaltation by making and keeping sacred covenants with the Lord, starting with baptism. We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ through repentance and obedience for the remainder of our lives after our baptism.

God is not going to do it for us. He has done everything for us already without taking away our agency. We are learning vital lessons that can only be learned in this condition, and we are learning to become like our Father. It's just like parenthood in this life. There comes a time when we must let our children choose for themselves, or they will never truly learn or come to know anything on their own. But none of this would be possible without the Atonement of Jesus Christ. So, we owe it all to him. We are happy to work, and are happy to progress. It brings us great joy to have this opportunity, and we have our Father and his Christ to thank for it.

Sincerely,
Vanhin

Vanhin.

I have only been learning about Mormonism for about six years and I agree I do have more to learn. I do seek wisdom from a friend from time to time. He is quite helpful.
He did assist me on the last letter only and below is the answer to your previous answer.


This is MA in Washington.

[I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me?]

I have studied Mormonism (theology) for over 25 years. I have challenged Mormons and others of other faiths to debate me in public for 19 years in a row at our local fair and they have always been afraid to own their faith. My challenge to you and anyone else: If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel. If you are a wimp for Christ – Sit down and don’t waste my time by writing me back!



[Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?]



Yup, Sure am.



[I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine.]



Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They seem to want to sound like biblical Christians. I UNCLOAK them with the truth. I have helped many come to know the true Jesus of the Bible and the true gospel of the Bible and GET saved.



[I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is.]



I don’t plan to become a Satanist to be able to understand devil worship either. However, if you would like to become a TRUE Christian, I can help you out with that.

MA

[Jenamarie]

ktfords: I find nothing to dislike about 2nd Nephi 25:23. I am on my third run through the Book of Mormon, and have been paying very close attention to what I've been reading. I can see how someone unfamiliar with the Book of Mormon might come to your conclusion as to it's meaning, but I also see my interpretation of it as being valid.

A thought that popped into my head as I contemplated your interpretation of the verse. How would you interpret something like this?

For it is by God that we are ultimately saved from illness, after all the medical treatments we can do.

I personally wouldn't interpret that as meaning that God doesn't expect us to go after medical treatment for our illnesses, but rather that, we can do our part, but the power to Save never leaves the hands of God. God blessed us with medical science, just as He blessed us with the Holy Spirit to help Sanctify us. We must "do", even if our "do'ing" doesn't have the capability to Save us. "Do'ing" is how we show our love and faith in our Father in Heaven. It feeds our faith.

Something that might be of interest to you. One of the footnotes for that verse leads to the book of James. I followed it and found the scripture it linked the 2nd Nephi verse to to be very interesting. Here is what the Bible says. I believe we're both agreed that this was written with the authority of God:

James 20: 20-26

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son up on the alter?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

Mormons and traditional Christians are in agreement that it is through Faith in Jesus Christ that we are Saved. It would appear from this Biblical verse that if we have no Works, then it can be concluded that we have no Faith, it being dead. And without Faith in Christ, where do we go?

[Islander]

Originally Posted by ktfords

If you will notice, I never mentioned a "SET LEVEL" because the text doesn't say that. Don't accuse me of something I didn't say. I merely quoted II Nephi 25:23. If you don't like what it says get out of Mormonism. If you are going to stay in, then just believe what is says. Don't try to change the words or the meaning. Many people read the Book of Mormon and don't pay attention to what it says. Again IT SAYS that you get grace AFTER ALL you CAN do. If you are honest, you will admit that you are not perfect and can do more - every day. Just like me, YOU WILL NEVER qualify for Grace according to II Nephi 25:23.

Ktfords:

Why your resistance? WE are telling you that how YOU interpret the passage YOU are misreading it. Now if you believe to understand better than us as members I guess we should just stop and move onto something else here. It seems to me that you made up your mind about 5 1/2 years ago about LDS doctrine and teachings. So my friend I suggest we end the argument here since it stopped being profitable a long time ago..

I have read ALL your posts and again and again you go to other websites and copy/paste paraphrase argumentative responses while trying to respond to our explanations. Sincerely, I do not get your point. If you have been "studying Mormonism" for six years you should understand the doctrine better. Or, you should have arrived to a conclusion about the BoM. Whatever the outcome, to be still engaged in this argument seem futile. My wholehearted suggestion is for you to move on onto other perhaps more fullfilling activities, my friend. I do wish you the very best and hope you will find in place and time where you can worship as you see fit and according to the dictate of your own conscience.

[Jenamarie]

Originally Posted by ktfords

Vanhin.

I have only been learning about Mormonism for about six years and I agree I do have more to learn. I do seek wisdom from a friend from time to time. He is quite helpful.
He did assist me on the last letter only and below is the answer to your previous answer.


This is MA in Washington.

[I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me?]

I have studied Mormonism (theology) for over 25 years. I have challenged Mormons and others of other faiths to debate me in public for 19 years in a row at our local fair and they have always been afraid to own their faith. My challenge to you and anyone else: If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel. If you are a wimp for Christ – Sit down and don’t waste my time by writing me back!



[Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?]



Yup, Sure am.



[I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine.]



Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They seem to want to sound like biblical Christians. I UNCLOAK them with the truth. I have helped many come to know the true Jesus of the Bible and the true gospel of the Bible and GET saved.



[I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is.]



I don’t plan to become a Satanist to be able to understand devil worship either. However, if you would like to become a TRUE Christian, I can help you out with that.

MA

Wow. Well, now we know why you're here. Perhaps the people attending a fair don't want to discuss religion, because that's not what people typically go to a fair to do?? I would much rather ride the tilt-o-whirl than get into a debate with someone who's intent is "uncloaking" my religion for me. I've engaged with enough people of that ilk to know that even starting the conversation is pointless. They won't accept the fact that I truely know my religion, and they won't accept the fact that they don't. I've never been in one of those conversations where outright lies, misinterpretations, and/or twisted truths weren't used by the "uncloaker" to try to shake my faith, and when I try to point out their error, I'm accused of "not knowing the truth", even if, where I to have my Scriptures with me (which I typically don't when these conversations occur, and I have a terrible memory for memorizing scriptures) I'd be able to SHOW them what I believe, as spelled out both in the Book of Mormon, AND the Bible. They turn into yelling matches, where the Spirit of the Lord is unable to dwell.

[bytor2112]

Kt......

I thought we were having such a good interchange, but alas you interject this..."MA" into the converation. Why pray tell? Do you know how many times LDS members have heard that we are not Christian or that we do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible? Your friend, like so many self professed experts of Mormonism, is unable to accept our beliefs as expressed by members who live the faith. I have posted about this a lot in this thread. I have met many with your friends arrogant attitude, they rarely want to discuss anything. They prefer to argue and accuse and tell you that isn't what the church teaches. Funny, they think that we don't read or believe in the Bible.

[Jenamarie]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Kt......

I thought we were having such a good interchange, but alas you interject this..."MA" into the converation. Why pray tell? Do you know how many times LDS members have heard that we are not Christian or that we do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible? Your friend, like so many self professed experts of Mormonism, is unable to accept our beliefs as expressed by members who live the faith. I have posted about this a lot in this thread. I have met many with your friends arrogant attitude, they rarely want to discuss anything. They prefer to argue and accuse and tell you that isn't what the church teaches. Funny, they think that we don't read or believe in the Bible.

I've had traditional Christian friends tell me, with surprise in their voice, how well versed in the Bible I seem to be! It's an unfortunate misconception about Mormons that we know little to nothing about what is said in the Bible.

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by ktfords

Vanhin.

I have only been learning about Mormonism for about six years and I agree I do have more to learn. I do seek wisdom from a friend from time to time. He is quite helpful.
He did assist me on the last letter only and below is the answer to your previous answer.


This is MA in Washington.

[I appreciate you attempts to discuss our doctrine with us. I am a little curious about what makes you qualified to make a statement that I or anyone else "...has somewhat of a working knowledge of the requirements in the LDS gospel for qualifying for grace." Could you explain this to me?]

I have studied Mormonism (theology) for over 25 years. I have challenged Mormons and others of other faiths to debate me in public for 19 years in a row at our local fair and they have always been afraid to own their faith. My challenge to you and anyone else: If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel. If you are a wimp for Christ – Sit down and don’t waste my time by writing me back!



[Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?]



Yup, Sure am.



[I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine.]



Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They seem to want to sound like biblical Christians. I UNCLOAK them with the truth. I have helped many come to know the true Jesus of the Bible and the true gospel of the Bible and GET saved.



[I submit that if you do not live it, you do not know it; beyond theory that is.]



I don’t plan to become a Satanist to be able to understand devil worship either. However, if you would like to become a TRUE Christian, I can help you out with that.

MA

ktfords,

Well, by now I hope you are thinking twice about listening to the advice of your friend. I hope that you have at least read the posts presented to you by the Latter-day Saints on these forums. They represent our faith, which is in Jesus Christ. We seek with all that we have to follow his teachings. We confess with our lips, our hearts, and our deeds, that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.

As far as arguing with your friend goes, I'll let the Master answer that:

And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away. (3 Ne. 11:29)

Regards,
Vanhin

[funkymonkey]

[QUOTE=ktfords;236026]Vanhin.

[I have studied Mormonism (theology) for over 25 years. I have challenged Mormons and others of other faiths to debate me in public for 19 years in a row at our local fair and they have always been afraid to own their faith. My challenge to you and anyone else: If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel. If you are a wimp for Christ – Sit down and don’t waste my time by writing me back!]

"afraid to own their own faith." - that's a pretty big assumption. Do you have a letter or statement from one of them saying "I'm not going to join in because I'm afraid to own my faith.
Doesn't it make a LOT more sense that they declined because they would prefer to spend their time building people up rather than cutting them down?

"If you are NOT afraid and are confident that you are a true believer, stand up for your God and your gospel." Are we not standing up for our God right now?

[Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?

Yup, Sure am.]

"Yup, Sure am."- this is a broad generalization. Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?
To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."


I am addressing this to you as just one imperfect individual to another...not "church to church"

I honestly am trying to understand where you are coming from.
But by how your information is delivered, I just sense a lot of anger coming from you...not an honest yearning to share truth.
I believe a true Christian teaches with the love of Jesus Christ.
Are you here out of love? or out of motive?

Just trying to understand.

[rameumptom]

KT, would you care to give us your version of what the gospel is about? Are you a general Christian, Baptist, or what? I'd really like to know, so we can also discuss YOUR religion and how you are probably mistaken about what it all means by what leaders of that sect/religion have stated over the years.

Any traditional Christian would accept St Augustine as authoritative. That being the case, all Christians should believe that unbaptized babies that die will burn in hell. Of course, Calvin taught the TULIP and limited atonement. Should I go on?

You see, we do not believe our prophets to be perfect nor infallible. Had you spent the time to study our scriptures, you would have seen that. Instead, we see them as inspired and holding priesthood authority to perform important ordinances for salvation. If you expect perfection from prophets, then you had better start by rejecting the prophets of the bible. Moses and Joshua were involved in genocide. Abraham lied about Sarah being his sister. Peter denied Jesus thrice. Even Jesus could be viewed as ethnically prejudiced, for calling a Canaanite woman and her people "dogs."

If I were in your area, I'd be glad to have a discussion over topics at the Fair with you - with standard debate rules. Of course, that would mean you would have to spend time answering questions about your version of Christianity, as well. Are you really ready to do that?

What do you have to offer in your religion that is better than Mormonism? Do you offer a "for sure" reading of the Bible, or just one of many from Christian philosophers? Does your version of Christianity accept an anthropomorphic God, which is extremely evident throughout the Biblical record? Does your version require baptism by water and spirit, as Jesus mandated in John 3:5? Does yours require apostles, prophets and other offices until Christ brings all into the "unity of faith" (Ephesians 4:11-14), because they are the foundation of the Church, with "Christ the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2)?
Are the commandments a necessary out-flowing of one's belief, or is a person saved by professing Christ with their lips alone? If the latter, then how do you explain the myriad of commandments Christ and his apostles gave, including Paul? And how do you explain Isaiah's warning of those who profess with their lips, but whose hearts are far from God (Is 29)?
Of the Reformers, which ones do you espouse, and which ones do you reject, and why? How can you be sure which ones are correct and which are wrong, if you have no prophet to reveal God's secrets to you (Amos 3:7)?
If a prophet must be perfect, as you insist that Joseph is a false prophet because of his lifestyle choices, then which Biblical prophets fit into your view of "perfect"? Does the genocides committed by Moses, Joshua, Gideon and others count or not? And if that isn't the same as Joseph, why not?

I can go on, but will stop for now, to give you a chance to answer these questions. If you can logically answer these, then please continue your attacks on Joseph Smith. If you cannot, then I suggest you stop attacking Joseph, or start attacking Biblical prophets, just so you can be consistent.