Anti-Mormons

[mike_uk]

I agree that trying to tear someones faith apart in such places as a fair is cruel. Personally when I was an active member and I was challenged by an inillectual in public I would back off rapidly. Some people just are not cut out to have a religious debate in public. Many people I know would just panic. But I know of people that could challenge a challenger as good as any man.

I have a dear friend who many years ago was serving a building mission for the church. He tells a nice story of when he was digging a huge hole, infact he was down the hole when he noticed it got dark suddenly. He happened to look up and noticed he was totally surrounded by a mob of anti's. They gave him a hard time and he as a new convert seriously struggled in his answers. This mob was getting rather agressive at his lack of knowledge and all he could think of was to bare his testmony. The mob was unable to challenge this and dispersed.

So i guess thats a good way of avoiding a debate.

[rameumptom]

The saddest part of it all, is that the vast majority of those who are considered anti-Mormons really do not know what we believe. They have received training and instructions from people like Ed Decker, who do not care if they bare false witness, so long as they are causing damage to the LDS Church.

It would be one thing if they first sought to understand our teachings and doctrines, and THEN to attack actual teachings we believe in.

It would also be a good thing if they were to learn how to present valid arguments, rather than straw men which they set up, only to knock back down (last year's DVD Joseph Smith/Jesus Christ, was filled with straw men).

Originally Posted by rameumptom

If a prophet must be perfect, as you insist that Joseph is a false prophet because of his lifestyle choices, then which Biblical prophets fit into your view of "perfect"? Does the genocides committed by Moses, Joshua, Gideon and others count or not? And if that isn't the same as Joseph, why not?

I can go on, but will stop for now, to give you a chance to answer these questions. If you can logically answer these, then please continue your attacks on Joseph Smith. If you cannot, then I suggest you stop attacking Joseph, or start attacking Biblical prophets, just so you can be consistent.

Hi Ram,

You have offered this comparison many times " If you consider JS to not be a prophet because of his lifestly choices " then you must also dismiss all other " prophets " for their
choices as well.

Please forgive me as I try and gain your LDS perspective. IT IS NOT A LIFESTLYLE CHOICE BY JS THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING, IT IS A CLAIM OF PROPHESY BY THE PROPHET ( JS ) HIMSELF THAT HE WAS COMMANDED TO IMPLEMENT THIS POLYGAMY.
A very different thing from my perspective and I am asking for your perspective.

Thanks for your consideration

God bless,
Carl

[ktfords]

["Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?
To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."]

Try reading this 2006 Salt lake Tribune article on the LDS church membership. Please read all of it.


Keeping members a challenge for LDS church - Salt Lake Tribune

[mike_uk]

Originally Posted by ktfords

["Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?
To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."]

Try reading this 2006 Salt lake Tribune article on the LDS church membership. Please read all of it.


Keeping members a challenge for LDS church - Salt Lake Tribune

Interesting article. I guess retention is always going to be tough for us. Converts come in and realise it's just so tough to live to the standards expected and just go. I have seen it so much in my time. Its been said here before but not everyone is mormon material.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by ktfords

["Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?
To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."]

Try reading this 2006 Salt lake Tribune article on the LDS church membership. Please read all of it.


Keeping members a challenge for LDS church - Salt Lake Tribune

KT:

I clearly understood your intentions several days ago my friend. I have posted to you also several times and you have not answered my posts, not ONCE. I certainly understand you do not believe the church is true. I can see you do not have a testimony of the call to prophesy of Joseph. You have made that point abundantly clear.

I do wish you well. I hope you find elsewhere what you are looking for and be happy. I no longer desire to continue this very contentious exchange since the Spirit can not assist us under such circumstances. You have studied LDS teachings and doctrine long enough and have made your mind also long ago. So, do move on to other more productive activities for you. Seek to associate with those that hold views more in synch with your belief system and understanding of the world.

I would urge the moderators to wrap up the thread. It has run its course, it evidenced positions on all sides and because of contention is has ceased to be profitable to all involved.

Best wishes

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hi Ram,

You have offered this comparison many times " If you consider JS to not be a prophet because of his lifestly choices " then you must also dismiss all other " prophets " for their
choices as well.

Please forgive me as I try and gain your LDS perspective. IT IS NOT A LIFESTLYLE CHOICE BY JS THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING, IT IS A CLAIM OF PROPHESY BY THE PROPHET ( JS ) HIMSELF THAT HE WAS COMMANDED TO IMPLEMENT THIS POLYGAMY.
A very different thing from my perspective and I am asking for your perspective.

Thanks for your consideration

God bless,
Carl

And that's where this comes in: if God okayed polygamy by Abraham and others in the Bible, then it was potentially okay for Joseph to also live it.

The issue then comes down to: was Joseph a prophet? We cannot use polygamy as a claim against him, as that would create a circular argument:
1. We condemn polygamy as false and wrong in our day
2. Joseph Smith practiced polygamy
3. Therefore, Joseph Smith was a false prophet for practicing polygamy, which we condemn.

Instead, we need to view his overall work as a prophet. Looking not just at one small piece of his effort, but all of the pieces, and see how they fit together. Does this tapestry fit in with the Bible's teachings and history, or are they diametrically opposed? Does his teachings seem to actually restore ancient teachings, or are they newly made up things?

[ktfords]

Response to Vanhin from MA.

[You said, “Are you under the impression that Latter-day Saints, in general, do not know the doctrine that they adhere to, and that you are in a position to enlighten us?”]


I said, “Yup, Sure am.”



[You said, “I recommend that you listen to what members of this faith are saying, they not only understand the doctrine, but they live it, and are therefore intimately familiar with the doctrine.”]



__________________________________________________ ______________________________


Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They certainly don’t study – Study the Book of Mormon like the Christians study the Bible. Ever heard of Bible studies? Not at Mormon’s homes. Ever heard of Book of Mormon Study groups? Never! There is a good reason. The Book of Mormon’s teachings on God and the Gospel are absolutely against Mormonism. I tried to start a Book of Mormon study group at work and not one Mormon would join. Mormons are afraid to study their faith because they might find out that it is wrong.



You gave me all those points on your belief in the gospel of “Eternal Progression” and how you can return to your heavenly Father. I find it interesting that you – like so many other Mormons leave out many key points. Like God the Father has a Father who has a Father – almost never mentioned. You get to be sealed to your family and this saves them even if they are mass murderers child rapers etc – or the temple work for them is done in vein (a waste of time). The Book of Mormon is against eternal progression and a second chance after death. The Book of Mormon is against Baptism for the Dead! Study Moroni 8:18 – God was never a man because he has NEVER changed. Study Alma 34:32-36 If you die a sinner the Devil seals you his and this is the FINAL state of the wicked – no second chance. Find me any verse in the Book of Mormon that teaches eternal progression. This is the foundation of the gospel of Mormonism. Show me any verse that teaches that God is married and was once a man. If you can’t and you can’t then the Book of Mormon does not contain the FULLNESS of the everlasting Gospel. It is against that very gospel and every Mormon who claims a testimony of its truthfulness is wrong. Mormons just don’t pay attention to what the words in their book say. Try to start a Book of Mormon study. Hah, fat chance. The Bible states, “Study to show yourself approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing (understanding) the word of truth.”



I have NEVER done a public debate on Mormonism. That’s because I have not found one Mormon who is confident enough in his faith and trusts his God and his prophets enough to stand in public. I have challenged Mormons everywhere for over ten years, “come out come out wherever you are!” There is only snivel for an answer. No Mormon trusts in his God or his gospel enough to stand in public. I did a fair booth in my local fair for 19 years challenging the Mormons to a public debate in the open air at the fair. Most wouldn’t even talk. Afraid. I can only conclude that Mormons do not have courage to stand for their God and their gospel. I live in Washington State and will pay for you or any Mormon priesthood holder to come out of hiding and debate me in public. No takers yet. Do you have courage?

MA from Washington

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by ktfords

["Surely you don't believe that 13 million people are put into this one tiny category...?
To me that's like saying "all blonde women are stupid."]

Try reading this 2006 Salt lake Tribune article on the LDS church membership. Please read all of it.


Keeping members a challenge for LDS church - Salt Lake Tribune

Yes, and may I remind all that most Christian religions are losing membership in many areas of the world, especially in the USA and Europe. Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran cathedrals in Europe have few attend their masses anymore.

So, what does it mean? Just because people fall away from a church or join a church does not make that church approved of God. There have been people leave God in droves in the past, including Noah. Does that make Noah a false prophet, simply because the world rejected him? How about Jesus, who had many leave him at the end of his ministry?

do we really want to judge a religion by who is in the pews and who isn't?

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by ktfords

Most LDS people do not want to talk about the truly Mormon doctrines. They certainly don’t study – Study the Book of Mormon like the Christians study the Bible. Ever heard of Bible studies? Not at Mormon’s homes. Ever heard of Book of Mormon Study groups? Never! There is a good reason. The Book of Mormon’s teachings on God and the Gospel are absolutely against Mormonism. I tried to start a Book of Mormon study group at work and not one Mormon would join. Mormons are afraid to study their faith because they might find out that it is wrong.


MA from Washington

And I would say you must be smoking something funny. We have Seminaries and Institute classes. I have had informal Book of Mormon classes in my home on many occasions, as well as given firesides, etc. Online, there are numerous places, including this one, where indepth discussion goes on.

Are there many LDS that do not know the Book of Mormon and doctrines. Sure. But I can make that same claim with many Christian religions. How many Christian churches teach the Bible the way you do? I'd say about 1/2 are for works, and the other half are into salvation by grace alone. Some insist on baptism, while others do not think it necessary. Some insist on the workings and gifts of the Spirit, as Paul taught, while many reject them (such as the Church of Christ). Some accept homosexuality and abortion, while others consider them damnable sins. Some see Mormons as Christians, and others see Mormons as children of the devil. Some see Jews as children of God, while others see them as children of the devil. Shall I go on, or are these enough examples?

I have read the Book of Mormon about 75 times in my lifetime. How many times have you read it? Have you read it enough to see the temple endowment imagery flowing throughout it? Have you seen how Lehi's theophany in 1 Nephi 1 is on par with Isaiah's theophany in the Ascension of Isaiah?

How about how King Benjamin's discourse lines up perfectly with ancient Hebrew and Middle Eastern Year Rites?

If you are referring to where the BoM states that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one God", have you considered you are misreading it? In each instance, it references the "doctrine of Christ" (2 Ne 31, 3 Ne 11). This doctrine is that the Godhead is one God, and we must become one as they are. The manner in which we become one with them is by developing faith in Christ, repentance, baptism/ordinances, and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Or had you not noticed that there is a theme? Seems like many anti-Mormons know how to pick a verse out of the Bible or LDS scriptures and twist it as they would like, but do not really study them in context. And I would state that is what you are doing.

We accept the Book of Mormon's teachings on grace and salvation. We accept the Book of Mormon's teachings on continuing revelation, miracles, and angelic visitations. We accept the Book of Mormon's teachings that we all need to become one with God and each other, and receive our own personal theophany. Just what part of the Book of Mormon do you think we not accept?