Anti-Mormons

[john doe]

Originally Posted by OtterPop

Have you ever asked yourself why that might be?

Yes. Because they know it's true. If you have rejected what you know to be truth, by sin or lack of faith, you must prove to yourself and to everyone else that is was never true in the first place. You must destroy that which you know is true but have rejected anyway.

[OtterPop]

Originally Posted by john doe

Yes. Because they know it's true. If you have rejected what you know to be truth, by sin or lack of faith, you must prove to yourself and to everyone else that is was never true in the first place. You must destroy that which you know is true but have rejected anyway.

Well, that's the typical answer -- and a very simplistic one. And one that Mormons can feel really good about.

I can tell you, though, that for many ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons it simply isn't true.

[bytor2112]

Ok...so what is the non-simplistic truth as you see it?

[john doe]

Originally Posted by OtterPop

Well, that's the typical answer -- and a very simplistic one. And one that Mormons can feel really good about.

I can tell you, though, that for many ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons it simply isn't true.

Please, oh mighty wise one: enlighten all us simpletons with your theory. I'm betting that my theory is better than yours.

[prospectmom]

“
Did anyone read this in the news link on this site????? I loved it.....


John Doe----- laughed so hard about your comment about pale..... such quick wit is appreciated by me.

people tend to put their own tone on a post and not necessarly the way the person who posted it ment it to be taken. I was subject and guilty of this not long ago on another thread. Sarcasm can be taken on even the most innocent statement I think we need not be so sensitive........ This is something I am working on.....


Ok I should have put these comments after my paste on the article.... I am learning still please forgive.... hope you enjoy the article ..........


By Michael De Groote
Mormon Times
Published: Tuesday, Jul. 15, 2008
Editor's note: We are not at liberty to disclose exactly how the following e-mail correspondence came into our possession. It is, from all appearances, the reports and dispatches from certain underworld demons, Related content:

Audio interview -- Robert L. Millet talks about sharing one's faith on the Internet
Nailstrip and Bugstone by name, concerning the posting of comments on newspaper Web sites such as DeseretNews.com. As for the veracity of what the exchange purports, we prefer to let it speak for itself.



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From: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
To: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
Subject: Re: Your Progress

Dear Nailstrip,
Thank you so much for your great advice about how to utilize the Internet to advance our cause. It has been great fun to encourage like-minded humans to look for any story in the online newspaper that mentions Mormons. I then entice them to take over the comments sections with outrageous statements that put those Mormons in their place.

A sweet little story (so called!) will generate sweet little comments -- but all it takes is one snarky comment and the fun begins. I thought the Mormons would be smart enough to ignore obnoxious off-topic comments. It seems so obvious that all the nasty commenter wants is to make trouble. But you were right (as always); the Mormons couldn't resist -- they had to respond!

There is even a name for our friends that make these nasty upsetting comments. They are called "trolls." I just can't understand why anybody would fall for something like this, but the trolls get the Mormons' goat every time.
Despicably Yours,
Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
To: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
Subject: Re: Re: Your Progress

Bugstone,
Acknowledging my sage advice is always a wise career move. However I had asked for a progress report. Do you have any specific examples of success?

Look for examples of what President Gordon B. Hinckley decried: "Some of them are filled with venom, written by people who seem to find no good in the world or in their associates. Criticism, fault-finding, evil speaking -- these are the spirit of the day."
Detestably,
Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
To: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
Subject: Success stories

Dear Nailstrip,
I have most wonderful news for my report. Just look at these statements that I have enticed people to post on the comments section of the online newspaper:

"I wish the church would grow up and move into this century"

"Why would someone want to be part of a church . . . where you aren't allowed to think for yourself?"

"It is so hard to be free in Utah."

"The Church seems really out of touch with younger members especially."

"When did Mormon become a synonym for 'primitive'?"

"What is wrong with you people? You sound like the Taliban. Get a life."

"You Mormons are being absolutely petty and stupid about this!"

"Mormons are bigoted, self absorbed, ignorant and pathetic."

"You people are insane."

As you can see, I have enticed wide variety of great evil comments that are sure to bring a fiendish smile on the lips of our boss. I have no doubt that you will be proud of your humble apprentice's accomplishments.

I have elicited 1,243 negative comments on the newspaper's Web site about the Mormons this month (not including those comments that didn't make it past the comment board moderators -- oh, how I hate those moderators).
Despicably Yours,
Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
To: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
Subject: Re: Success Stories

Bugstone,
Thou Fool! This isn't about statistics, it is about people. Furthermore, what does our boss care for the comments of those who are already our friends? Our whole goal is to ensnare those who follow Our Enemy.

Did you even read the memo I sent you about what Elder M. Russell Ballard has said? Do you realize that he is encouraging more Mormons to let their voices be heard on the Internet? WE ARE LOSING GROUND! The only way we can stem this attack is to twist it to our advantage.

We need to discourage people from reading his talk. They must never think that their job is "to share the gospel and explain in simple, clear terms the message of the Restoration." Worse yet, Elder Ballard actually wants members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to "Talk honestly and sincerely about the impact the gospel has had in your life, how has it helped you overcome weaknesses or challenges, and helped define your values." Ugh!

features continue below advertisement
Do you now understand why it is so important to get the "trolls" to hijack the conversation? Yes, you must continue to encourage the snarky comments -- but not for their own sake. The snarky comment is to make the Mormons forget Elder Ballard's advice.

I love it when a Mormon howls:

"If you don't like what Utah is like -- LEAVE. If you don't like the LDS church -- LEAVE. If you don't like BYU and what its staff is doing - LEAVE."

Mormons must believe their duty is not to share, but to counter attack. They must respond in kind, not in kindness.
Detestably,
Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
To: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
Subject: Improved Tactics

Dear Nailstrip,
Your long email has me concentrating on tactics. I have decided that getting Mormons to judge others is the way to go.

Look at these great comments:

"You are where you need to be right now. OUT OF THE CHURCH."

"He obviously was not . . . a good member of the church."
Despicably Yours,
Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
To: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
Subject: Re: Improved Tactics

Bugstone,
Any common devil can get somebody to judge another person. Your goal should be get them to hate judging so much that they spend all their time judging others for being judgmental. They will be so enthralled with their own high road they won't recognize they are mired even further in the pit.

These are the comments that bring us the most joy:

"Why are members of the Church so quick to judge others?" (Notice how this commenter is beginning to separate himself mentally from the church? Otherwise he would have said, "Why are WE so quick to judge others?" This is not as subtle a difference as you may suppose.)

"I'm amazed people have time to stop and judge." (Yet this commenter has time to stop and judge judgers.)

"Take a look in the mirror and get off your high horse!" (Keep a mirror away from this one.)

See how quickly they forget Elder Ballard's quoting of Proverbs 15:1, "a soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."
Detestably,
Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
To: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
Subject: Creating Hate

Dear Nailstrip,
I remember, of course, our mission statement:

Contention is of the Devil.

I think that what I am going to do next is get Mormon posters to hate the other people posting. I want them to imagine they are in the same room yelling at each other. What do you think?
Despicably Yours,
Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
To: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
Subject: Re: Improved Tactics

Bugstone,
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If they imagine they are in the same room they might perceive them as human. Our Boss' best work has been to dehumanize others. That is what makes the Internet so ideal for our purposes.

The commenter must never realize he is dealing with real people with real thoughts and feelings. At the same time, you must enhance the commenter's feelings to perceive everything from other commenters as a personal attack.

Daniel C. Peterson, a professor at Brigham Young University, said, "I have to admit that I've found the Internet and message boards kind of horrifying. I always wonder are these people that way in their daily life -- their interactions with other people? Or is this just something you can do because you are anonymous and you don't know the person: The person you are responding to are not real flesh and blood either -- they are just electrons on the screen. So I am horrified at the level of discourse. It is quite often just unspeakably horrible."

It is the perfect contrast. Their opponent is impersonal and yet everything their opponent says back is personal. If they share their testimony, make sure they are using it as a weapon.

We want the opposite of what Robert L. Millet, another BYU professor, would call a good post on the Internet: "A positive expression of what I believe and what I feel strongly about and invite others to ask me questions and then respond as kindly and as generously and as openly as I can -- recognizing there are things about which we disagree. And that's OK; that's OK if we disagree. We don't have all the answers and no one does."

Millet's ideas are dangerous. He actually has said, "We live in a world that begs for people to better understand one another and that just isn't accomplished by contention and confrontation."

He even sees the possibility that people can get to know each other: "There is so much need to better understand one another and to get to know people better. It is very difficult to demonize someone you know well. It is very difficult to marginalize someone who is your friend."

As if there is something wrong with demonizing someone! Ha!

Never ever let it cross a commenter's mind that most people who read comments never comment themselves. Their real audience is the people who just read on the sidelines.

If Mormons got the idea that many real people are reading, they might post something positive that could change the direction of the comments and inspire somebody. That would destroy our purpose.
Detestably,
Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
To: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
Subject: Post parting depression

Dear Nailstrip,
I was beginning to think that I can't come up with any approach you would approve of -- until now. I have a killer idea: I will discourage people from posting at all. If you will look at the latest stories at the newspaper you will see almost no comments that are anything like what Elder Ballard was encouraging.
Despicably Yours,
Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
To: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
Subject: Re: Post parting depression

Bugstone,
At last you may be on to something. If nobody posts nice things, there are no models to encourage others to post. If only the most negative things get posted, a positive person may think there is no point.

The danger still lies that the enemy will continue to encourage people to get active on the Internet. We must not forget that even if some Mormons do not post comments on a newspaper site, they may participate in other online media.

While I was writing this e-mail, a set of handy guidelines was put on the lds.org Web site. They are recommending, "Just share your stories in a kind and gentle way, remembering that not everyone will agree with what you say—and that’s OK. Remember to respect others and their opinions. Be friendly and polite, even if you comment anonymously. Act like you would if you were talking to your next door neighbor."

We must redouble our efforts to counteract this subversion.

The worst thing that could happen would be if somebody went to the lds.org Web site and looked at how an apostle answers difficult questions. Imagine what would happen if the Mormons started responding like President Gordon B. Hinckley did on "60 Minutes."
Detestably,
Nailstrip

From: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
To: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
Subject: Whatever shall we do?

Dear Nailstrip,
I am in distress. Suddenly I have noticed comments like these:

"My experience in the Church has helped me live a better life . . ."

"This story reminds be of the last Family Home Evening we held in our family. My 9 year old child prayed for a classmate that was having a difficult time and . . ."

"The thing that I like about this story is . . ."
"I can understand the frustration some people feel about this issue. Perhaps my own experience will be of some help . . ."

"I think I am beginning to understand your position. I admire how your faith helps you to . . ."

They are ignoring the trolls! They are ignoring the snarky comments and starting their own threads of conversation. They are sharing their, shudder, testimonies!
Despicably Yours,
Bugstone

From: "Nailstrip" <nail_strip@7734.hl>
To: "Bugstone" <bug_stone@7734.hl>
Subject: Re: Whatever shall we do?

Bugstone,
You have failed me for the last time. Our whole goal was to use comments to tear down. We wanted comments to embody the worst in people -- to have people make comments so bad that nobody would ever believe a Christian would write such a thing.

You were supposed to make the Mormons post in anger, pride and thoughtlessness. Instead, they are asking themselves, "What would Jesus post?"

You are reassigned to swear-word duty in the church basketball division -- effective immediately.
Detestably,
Nailstrip


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Author's afterward: All of the comments cited, except for the second to last e-mail, were taken from actual recent comments posted on various stories on deseretnews.com. The exchange was constructed with greatest deference to C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters."

E-Mail: mdegroote@dwsnews.com





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[Palerider]

Originally Posted by Shaliach

You didn't just ask a question, you made a rude comment "Did you think you were the only one who knew that?" I never said I did, nor did I intimate it. Perhaps next time you ask a question you might choose your words a bit more carefully so no one has reason to take offense.

Why does it bother you that I posted the information? Does full disclosure threaten your faith or something?

And I am in the midst of another conversation of more substance than this one with you wherein I've been asked many questions and even confronted on my posts. The difference is they do so with respect and receive it in return. I will gladly do the same with you if you can see your way to doing so as well.

I am glad to hear the other moderators are okay though.

There is nothing you could say or do that would shake ny faith....and I did ask you a question....2 questions to be exact.......you don't need to answer them cause I know you are a busy person....and I to am thankfull the other Moderators except for pammie are nicer than me....

[OtterPop]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Ok...so what is the non-simplistic truth as you see it?

The most obvious answer I've heard from ex-Mormons is that the Church doesn't leave them alone. Most members don't consider how true this can be. The Mormon Church is easy to get in to -- but can be hard to get out of completely.

Cancelling your membership is easier now than it used to be. When I did it in 1997, I was told I had to write a letter to my bishop, which I did. He didn't respond. Three months later, I wrote another letter. He did respond to this letter -- by sending some home teachers over. It made me laugh, because no home teachers from that ward had ever contacted me before.

Since withdrawing my membership, I have had teachers (the Aaronic priesthood kind) knock on my door and ask for fast offerings. Several years ago, I talked to missionaries who came to my door. When I told them I was no longer Mormon, they requested to discuss with me the reasons I had left the Church. I said OK, we set an appointment, and they didn't show up.

About a month ago, some sister missionaries were tracting in my neighborhood. I told them I was no longer Mormon and was not interested in hearing about the Mormon Church. Last Sunday morning, our doorbell rang. We didn't answer because we weren't expecting anyone, and don't typically have people who "drop in." And we like our peaceful Sunday mornings. The doorbell rang again. Then a knock. Then another knock. Finally, my husband answered the door because we thought maybe something was wrong. No, it was just persistent missionaries.

Although I enjoy discussing Mormonism and my own Mormon experience, I don't go knocking on doors to do it, and I don't tell Mormons they should leave their church or are wrong for having joined it.

In my experience, people who truly believed in Mormonism rarely leave for the reasons so many Mormons assume that they do: (1) sin, (2) being offended by a member, or (3) never really believing in the first place.

Mormons don't like being stereotyped or having their experience -- for example, their testimonies -- mocked or dismissed. Neither do ex-Mormons.

[OtterPop]

Originally Posted by john doe

Please, oh mighty wise one: enlighten all us simpletons with your theory. I'm betting that my theory is better than yours.

I have to agree with the previous poster about you being rather abrasive.

I said that your answer was simplistic, not that you're a simpleton. It's not my habit to call people names, and I don't think your sarcasm contributes to the dialogue.

It's not "theory" that I intend to discuss in this thread; it's my experience of being an ex-Mormon.

[Palerider]

are you just talking about your expierence and giving an opinion for the others?????

[bytor2112]

Ottherpop,

Thanks for your candidness......
Why do you think "people who truly believed in Mormonism" leave?