Endowments vs. Masons

[guitarwizard]

I am currently engaged in an ongoing online defense of the church. The attack was based on an RM who left the church due to the endowment ceremony and the masonic remains that are found within the ceremony.

What are you reactions towards this?

Mods, if this is too touchy, feel free to lock.

Edit: Original start of "debate"

WHY IS THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY LITTERED WITH SIGNS AND SYMBOLS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE FREEMASON DEGREES? DO YOU THINK ITS ONLY A COINCIDENCE THAT JOSEPH SMITH INITIATED INTO FREEMASONRY AND THEN WITHIN THE MONTH "REVEALED" THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY, WITH ALL ITS MASONIC ELEMENTS? AND LASTLY, DO YOU FIND IT ODD THAT OVER THE YEARS THE MOST OBVIOUS MASONIC ELEMENTS (THE PENALTIES, THE FIVE POINTS OF FELLOWSHIP, ETC.) HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY?

[goofball]

The Masons are just a apostate version of the temple ceremony. Whenever the Lord has something the adversary always attempts a close copy.

I am not well versed in this because I never worried about it but check out this link
FAIR Topical Guide: Masonic Influence on the FAIRS website. Hope that helps

[guitarwizard]

Originally Posted by goofball

The Masons are just a apostate version of the temple ceremony. Whenever the Lord has something the adversary always attempts a close copy.

I am not well versed in this because I never worried about it but check out this link
FAIR Topical Guide: Masonic Influence on the FAIRS website. Hope that helps

i defintely pointed him towards some of those articles, but he so kindly bit back with "fairlds.org is not a scholary reference" despite the fact that most of those authors are LDS Freemasons.

[FunkyTown]

Wait... The Mason's are apostate? The Shriner's are apostates? They build children's hospitals and donate time and money to helping people. I know Mason's. My -Grandpa- was a Mason. I was -invited- in to the Masonic order(Though I didn't join.)

[goofball]

Not a scholarly reference. What a load of (fill in the blank). What does your friend consider a scholarly reference? I bet he considers himself a scholar than. SOunds like he is not even interested in hearing your point of view or investigating it himself. His mind is made up and that is that. Sorry to hear about that. I am interested to see how this pans out for you

[guitarwizard]

here is the conversation. I get very heated, i need to work on that.

Chitty Wrote: WHY IS THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY LITTERED WITH SIGNS AND SYMBOLS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE FREEMASON DEGREES? DO YOU THINK ITS ONLY A COINCIDENCE THAT JOSEPH SMITH INITIATED INTO FREEMASONRY AND THEN WITHIN THE MONTH "REVEALED" THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY, WITH ALL ITS MASONIC ELEMENTS? AND LASTLY, DO YOU FIND IT ODD THAT OVER THE YEARS THE MOST OBVIOUS MASONIC ELEMENTS (THE PENALTIES, THE FIVE POINTS OF FELLOWSHIP, ETC.) HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY?


me:I find it very sad that you did not have a strong enough faith to withstand the pitfalls and snares of anti-mormon literature. If you were so shaken by this fact, then you obviously did not have a testimony of the prophet and the restoration of the gospel. While i am far from a perfect saint, i have only been in the church 8 months and have a testimony of the prophet. Remember what predated what: Christian temples or Masonry? And, also remember that there is a difference in the endowment and the endowment ritual, which has been adapted several times to further the understanding of people at the time.

i suggest you peruse through this. and whatever church you belong to now, i hope that you build a stronger faith in it.

How does one explain similarities between Masonic and temple ritual?

that might help you out. And may god bless you.

Chitty wrote: I find it interesting that you attacked my credibility, worth, and integrity as a person instead of answering my questions. In an effort to keep this civil, I won't tear into you at this time.

Have you even been through the temple?

Me:No, i haven't been through the temple, but i know enough about it to answer your questions as i have dealt with this attack before (people will do anything in their power to prevent a baptism). I don't believe i attacked your worth or integrity as a person. I could see where you would say i attacked your crediblity, which was not my intention. I was actually just saddened by your loss of faith, if you had faith to begin with (not an attack, just an assumption).

And i did answer your question:
remember that there is a difference in the endowment and the endowment ritual, which has been adapted several times to further the understanding of people at the time.

i suggest you peruse through this. and whatever church you belong to now, i hope that you build a stronger faith in it.

How does one explain similarities between Masonic and temple ritual?
and referred you to a scholarly site in which you could learn more on the subject.


Chitty wrote:"www.fairlds.org" is about the furthest thing possible away from being a scholarly site. I studied the temple ceremony inside and out (have you?) as a believing mormon and missionary. I spent years studying Freemasons and their rites (have you?) - not from your reviled "anti-mormon literature" but rather from their own source materials. I came to this conclusion on my own after years of study, not some apologist or anti website. And trust me, my decision didn't come about because I was offended or had sinned or whatever mormons usually blame it on. It was actual free thought! Imagine that!

I know you're only 8 months into this, so naturally you're going to be defensive about your newfound beliefs. Your new mormonism-filter and the fact that I was there and now look at it from an outsider's perspective is going to make this nearly impossible to debate. I mean, your entire new way of life is on the line here!

The thing that makes me absolutely sick (other than the usual condescending tone of mormons towards "non"-mormons) to my stomach though is hearing you use the same tone and defenses that I taught people to use as a missionary, back when I believed. I dumbed down and blinded people for 2 years, and hearing you is just reminding me of that. The thought that I taught people to believe that they are free under the guise of "agency" is something I don't think I can forgive myself for.

me:
While you hardly find it scholarly, that article may prove to be a good source - Greg Kearney is not only a temple going member of the church (who has no doubt experienced the endowment ceremony numerous times) he is also a life member of Franklin Lodge #123 A.F. & A.M. as well as several lodges of research. He gives Masonic education lectures at lodges on the history and relationship of Freemasonry to the development of the Latter-day Saint temples.


While i may have only been a member of the church 8 months, i have been an investigator for well over 3 years. Nothing compared to your life of service (year wise), but i know that i have faced more doctrinal discussions and debates than (i'd say) the majority of members in my ward. Many of the formative years of my life were spent in deep study of the church. So yes, believe it or not, i have looked into Masons and their rites and studied the temple ceremony. And, our differences in opinions may be in the different ways we studied. Having a testimony of the prophet, i knew that the temple ceremony was inspired. There is something you taught as a missionary: if the Book of Mormon is true, then it also must be true that JS was a prophet. I wholeheartedly believe in the BoM, so i also believe that JS was a prophet. So, i believe his revelations were inspired, including that of the temple ceremony. Do i find it odd that masonic traces were in the endowment? Not at all. Christ's parables taught men in ways that they understand, so does the temple ceremony. And, in the beginning of the restoration of the church, masonry was widely practiced. Few people were members, and a lot were masons, so naturally they would be able to understand the endowment through those teachings. Today there are 13-14 million members (though hardly that many are temple worthy) and i suspect that a small percentage of those are masons, they would not understand things like the penalties and five points of fellowship. And, just for reference, the missionaries didn't teach me anything that hadn't already found out for myself through prayer and study. So don't tear yourself up about my "tone and defense," they are all mine. Studying the history of the people in the 1830s, the area, the culture: i found a belief system that there was no answer to but baptism. That is why i joined the church. It just seemed common sense after all that time.

Chitty: Yeah, I'm familiar with him and read a bit of his stuff a while back.

I will give you this: most people who write "anti-mormon" stuff are idiots and don't know what they're talking about. But I also happen to think their opposite, most believing mormons, are also.

I am happy to hear that you spent years worth of time preparing yourself for it. I will give you that. Most mormons are naive when it comes to the issues people take with the church, so at least you put forth an effort to think it through.




That looks like it may be the end of it. It seems he realized that i am not as naive as he thought and decided to retreat?

[goofball]

That is laughable on his part,thanks for posting. You did a great job as far as I am concerned on answering his questions. I wonder if he is a mason. I cannot help but to think that he is not. Which makes it a bit harder to study and understand them. By the same logic he uses I could study medicine and that would automatically make me a doctor (or by his logic a "scholar" and how I use that term loosely for him)

Once again I commend you on what you wrote and appreciate you adding in the difference between the two of you on how you approached studying the matter out.

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by guitarwizard

I am currently engaged in an ongoing online defense of the church. The attack was based on an RM who left the church due to the endowment ceremony and the masonic remains that are found within the ceremony.

Oh, joy. He's got ammo, then, and you need to know a lot to be able to address the issues. I HIGHLY recommend to take your inquiries to the MA&DB board ( Mormon Apologetics & Discussion Board ), where there are several exceptionally knowledgable LDS and Masonic members. I myself am a member of the Scottish Rite Research Society, though I am not a Blue lodge Freemason myself.

Originally Posted by guitarwizard

Edit: Original start of "debate"

WHY IS THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY LITTERED WITH SIGNS AND SYMBOLS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE FREEMASON DEGREES?

"taken directly" is a bit of a stretch, IMO. They are similar, yes, but as a whole there are many, many differences, INCLUDING WHAT THEY REPRESENT. I will conclude these remarks with a synapsis of my views on Mormonism and Masonry.

Originally Posted by guitarwizard

DO YOU THINK ITS ONLY A COINCIDENCE THAT JOSEPH SMITH INITIATED INTO FREEMASONRY AND THEN WITHIN THE MONTH "REVEALED" THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY, WITH ALL ITS MASONIC ELEMENTS?

Absolutely NOT a coincidence. However, it is helpful to understand that Joseph and HIS FAMILY were well acquainted with Freemasonry for many generations. It was NOT NEW to him, what with his paternal grandfather and his own beloved brother Alvin being members of Freemasonry. And there are more connections, but that'll do for now.

Originally Posted by guitarwizard

AND LASTLY, DO YOU FIND IT ODD THAT OVER THE YEARS THE MOST OBVIOUS MASONIC ELEMENTS (THE PENALTIES, THE FIVE POINTS OF FELLOWSHIP, ETC.) HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY?

It is not "odd". It is deliberate, yes. And these things are not the only changes -- yet the changes were all to one point, so they are of interest in this case. That is, the endowment changes, as always, have been made to update the delivery mechanism so as to not seem too strange (or, outdated) for the membership of the Church.

Thus, we can expect many more changes in the future, over time.

IOW, the format (or, superficial appearance) of the presentation must not distract too much from the content and meaning, or the meaning is lost. At the same time, the symbolism and types therein must exist, or the Heavens cannot be pierced, which is the entire point of the endowment.

Here's my synopsis:
It was revealed to Joseph, and thus he taught (read in the D&C), that the keys to the mysteries of heaven would be found in the temple, specifically in the temple endowment. This was before Nauvoo, where he and most other brethren joined the Freemasons. THINK ABOUT THAT. Doctrine and Covenants 84

Joseph knew by revelation that the Saints needed the endowment, for a very long time. He knew that this instruction must fit within the social structure and expectations of society, at least to a degree, or the membership would not be able to put forth sufficient faith to draw down the powers of heaven in an actual esoteric fullfillment to the rite or ceremony (exoteric) of the endowment. THINK ABOUT THAT.

None of that makes sense to the natural man, guaranteed. But God works through the mind and spirit of man, and Joseph understood this.

So when he saw the framework of the Freemason's rite, he saw an opportunity to couch the message of God's endowment in the same sociological framework, while including the divine, revealed elements that Heavenly Father had required him to teach and provide to the Saints. Serendipity, if you will.

Links of interest: http://www.sunstoneonline.com/magazi.../141-32-41.pdf

Why Did Joseph Smith Become a Mason?


HiJolly

[bytor2112]

"I know, as do we all, that the things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit....."- Elder Bruce R McConkie.

The debates are endless, but this statement is so true. Obviously this RM forgot this or didn't know it to begin with. Whenever I come across things about the Temple that make me scratch my head, I always remember the Spirit that I have felt and I realize that when it is time for me to understand I will. But for now the Spirit let's me know that it is ok. Any concerns about the endowment that I have had, were always answered by the Holy Spirit immediately upon entering the Celestial room. The things of God are glorious indeed.

[Vort]

Blunt truth:

The discussion with this guy is a waste of time. (At best.) Yes, you could prove him wrong point by point and show that he is either deceived or lying. Hurray! You win!

What's the point? As you strive with this guy, does the Spirit strive with you? If not, there is no point in the conversation. He will believe what he chooses to believe. Even if you do "prove him wrong", do you suppose that's going to stop him? Or do you think maybe you'll help reconvert him to the truth he has left? Neither option is likely.

Luke 23:9 "Then [Herod] questioned with [Jesus] in many words; but he answered him nothing."

1 Nephi 8:33 "[T]hey did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not."

Sometimes refusing to engage in conversation is the best answer.