BoM evidences

[jimuk]

justamere10, you go ahead, if someone, anybody can get anything from my post then please share it.
This is what i mean, some people are blessed as to be great scholars and academics, some of us can spread the love of our heavenly father by our testimonies, and when these things come together, well watch out world lol.

I am so thankful to heavenly father for leading me to this wonderful forum, and so grateful to everyone here, and i do indeed mean everyone for without you " All " i would not be learning and growing in my " Knowledge "

[changed]

thanks for your comments jimuk.

I often ponder the difference between knowledge (books) and wisdom (experience). In gaining a true understanding of things, wisdom is more important to have then knowledge.

What “evidences” does it take to talk us into stepping out of an ivory tower into actually living gospel principles… I know that understanding/experiences/ the real joy of the gospel does not come from the 2D world of books, but from the 3D world of life.

[evangelical]

While I do not believe in the Book of Mormon, I very much see a real need for objective evidence in establishing religious truth claims. When one is seriously considering to join any religion they are very likely going to feel God is telling them (subjectively) that it is the only true path even though, of course, there can only be one "only true path". Since everyone has subjective religious experiences, it seems very dangerous to me, to base all of eternity on one's own, as if it were unique to Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, or anything else. It is much safer, I think, to back up the subjective feelings with objective evidences. For example, if the Jehovah's Witnesses make certain claims about, say, the councils of Nicea and Chalcedon, well, those claims can be checked objectively against historical records. If these objective claims do not hold up to scrutiny, then that gives reason to doubt some of the other stuff the Watchtower is saying. The same goes for any religious sect. If Book of Mormon archaeology does not know quite where to start looking, maybe the scholars shall eventually figure it out. But in the meantime, there may be other areas to test for possible negative evidence. Everybody, in my opinion, ought to be willing to submit their religious views to the test. If what they believe is already true, what is learned may strengthen the solid faith they already have. And then they can help other people, people outside the true faith, see the truth. In my own talks with Mormon missionaries I became very frustrated by "just pray". Again, any faith can offer that type of guidance. Even the false ones. I, on the other hand, wanted solid objective evidence.

And I really do think that there are good arguments for religious truth. Even rationally compelling arguments. When a person is first presented with such arguments-arguments against deeply engrained beliefs, I mean-the natural reaction is, perhaps, to deny the conclusions. It takes a while to percilate, as they say. But this does not mean that the good arguments, and there conclusions, shall not eventually sink in.

In any area of life besides religion, prayer and feeling is normally not considered enough. "I am your brain surgeon. I haven't been to medical school but I did pray about your surgery today." "This is your pilot speaking. I haven't been to a flight school but that is just worldly wisdom. But I know I can fly this plane because I have had a burning in my bossom." It seems to me like it would be a bad idea to go to such a doctor, or ride on such an airplane. To my own way of thinking, I see no difference when it comes to choosing a religion. And this is my whole point. Namely, the importance of more than just subjective evidence (which those outside the true faith, whatever it may be, also have).

So I guess I agree with GhostRider (and Peter, and Paul, and Jesus). Objective evidence is very important. As for evidence of the Book of Mormon, there was a comic book series (like graphic novels) retelling the Book of Mormon story-which I'll buy if I ever become rich-that is supposed to have evidence that will blow our minds at the back of each issue. I have not read these so I don't know how good the apologetic is. In addition, I ran accross a sub-page of BYU. It was run by the somebody-or-other foundation. Sorry, I have forgotten who it is named after. But if you go to byu.edu, you could probably find it. It is general LDS apologetics (or at least with respect to the standard works in general). Some of that may prove helpful with respect to the Book of Mormon in particular.

[jimuk]

Originally Posted by evangelical

While I do not believe in the Book of Mormon, I very much see a real need for objective evidence in establishing religious truth claims. When one is seriously considering to join any religion they are very likely going to feel God is telling them (subjectively) that it is the only true path even though, of course, there can only be one "only true path". Since everyone has subjective religious experiences, it seems very dangerous to me, to base all of eternity on one's own, as if it were unique to Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS, or anything else. It is much safer, I think, to back up the subjective feelings with objective evidences. For example, if the Jehovah's Witnesses make certain claims about, say, the councils of Nicea and Chalcedon, well, those claims can be checked objectively against historical records. If these objective claims do not hold up to scrutiny, then that gives reason to doubt some of the other stuff the Watchtower is saying. The same goes for any religious sect. If Book of Mormon archaeology does not know quite where to start looking, maybe the scholars shall eventually figure it out. But in the meantime, there may be other areas to test for possible negative evidence. Everybody, in my opinion, ought to be willing to submit their religious views to the test. If what they believe is already true, what is learned may strengthen the solid faith they already have. And then they can help other people, people outside the true faith, see the truth. In my own talks with Mormon missionaries I became very frustrated by "just pray". Again, any faith can offer that type of guidance. Even the false ones. I, on the other hand, wanted solid objective evidence.

This is what people just do not seem to understand, it is much much more than just a "Feeling" and we cannot explain this as to make anyone understand and until this has actually happened to a person then it would be impossible for them to grasp what we are talking about. The only way i can try to explain would be to liken it to being "possessed" by the Holy spirit, a real presence, not just thinking Hmmm this sounds ok.

Originally Posted by evangelical

In any area of life besides religion, prayer and feeling is normally not considered enough. "I am your brain surgeon. I haven't been to medical school but I did pray about your surgery today." "This is your pilot speaking. I haven't been to a flight school but that is just worldly wisdom. But I know I can fly this plane because I have had a burning in my bossom." It seems to me like it would be a bad idea to go to such a doctor, or ride on such an airplane. To my own way of thinking, I see no difference when it comes to choosing a religion. And this is my whole point. Namely, the importance of more than just subjective evidence (which those outside the true faith, whatever it may be, also have).

Sorry and please do not take offence, but i feel that you really do underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.

[EarthyAngel]

My secret:

I never let Facts get in the way of Truth.

We live in a society that values Facts.

Truth often has little to do with Fact.

If you can come to wrap your head around this idea, you'll find Faith a lot easier.

The skeptic says "Seeing is Believing".
The mystic says "Believing is Seeing".

[jimuk]

Originally Posted by EarthyAngel

My secret:

I never let Facts get in the way of Truth.

We live in a society that values Facts.

Truth often has little to do with Fact.

If you can come to wrap your head around this idea, you'll find Faith a lot easier.

The skeptic says "Seeing is Believing".
The mystic says "Believing is Seeing".

1. I never let Facts get in the way of Truth.

The word of god is truth, which is manifest through the Holy Ghost, We are a Lucky and peculiar people. Let those that want to hear Listen.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. We live in a society that values Facts. = Wandering Hither and tither = not knowing which way to turn to find Christ. Thank god for the Missionaries.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Truth often has little to do with Fact.
Then there is Factual truth lol



Just a little something written about the Spirit of god

1 Corinthians 2:9-15

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by evangelical

While I do not believe in the Book of Mormon, I very much see a real need for objective evidence in establishing religious truth claims. When one is seriously considering to join any religion they are very likely going to feel God is telling them (subjectively) that it is the only true path even though, of course, there can only be one "only true path".

When one is converging on the peak of a mountain there are many paths leading to it from all sides. Some of those paths are less steep, some perhaps shorter, but they all lead to the same peak.

God loves us all, but it is my belief that He has exclusively commissioned the Latter-day Saints in our time to bestow Priesthood blessings upon His children, in the same way He organized His church in ancient times on a foundation of prophets and apostles.

[jimuk]

I write this for the benefit of those that ridicule us when we speak of the true power of the Holy ghost, and for those that think we are somehow living in a fantasy world of our own making.

When we first experience the holy ghost it is like nothing we have ever experienced on this earth before, I will endeavor to explain this wonderful beautiful happening.

It is like the Holy ghost makes direct contact with your own spirit, your spirit is so so happy that it manifests throughout your own physical body, this can be so strong, so overwhelming it can bring tears of joy/happiness its almost like you have gone home. This is what holds us fast when others would seek to harm us, this is what holds us when others would try to lead us astray.

I am not a so called " Good mormon " i do sin, but i know that heavenly father loves me as much as he loves the next man/woman, and whilst i keep truly loving my father, Jesus, and the holy ghost i will always have the Holy spirit with me.

So please do try to understand, dont laugh at us and point, just because we have love and kindness in our hearts, its not our fault, blame your heavenly father for choosing us.
Once you have truly had the Holy ghost with you, there is nothing you can do, you must care for others and love them as our Lord Jesus did when he was on this earth.

I believe in God the father, and in his son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. And i love them.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by changed

what sites have you found? Here are a few I have run across: ....

Mormon Sites has a huge amount of information on the Mesoamerica theory of Book of Mormon geography and a discussion board that Dr. Jerry Ainsworth interacts on.

But nothing has been proven to the satisfaction of professional archaeologists. Proof of the Book of Mormon is intended to be a spiritual process.

Mormon Sites - rising from the dust...

[rtNelson]

I can say this. There will never be enough evidence to back up all the stories in the Bible/Book of Mormon. That's why they are considered faith documents.