Uncomfortable Doctrine

[myway]

Originally Posted by MormonMama

For myself, I seek to follow those doctrinal teachings that will help me to emulate Christ. I feel that if I can do that, I have no need to worry about what will happen in there hereafter. I am content to do my best, not worry about what is only speculation at this point (because, as others have said well, those things are not necessary for our salvation or exaltation), and wait and see what Heavenly Father has in store for me after I'm done on this earth.

I'm pretty sure that if HE chooses to bestow something upon me, I will have no trouble accepting because I will have a much greater understanding at that point than I could possibly have with my puny mortal brain at this point.

I think this is a good and healthy approach to the whole idea, Good post MormonMama

[bytor2112]

Before I go into the Isaiah verses I want to make it clear (and you probably already know) that the LDS Church teaches a totally different Jesus than we do (not to mention a different Gospel and Salvation which is the pursuit of Godhood). According to Joseph Smith, Jesus is only following the footsteps of his father as he followed his own father before him and so on. The LDS Jesus (and God for that matter) is "progressive" in nature and the difference between "human" and "divine" is only a matter of degrees. The LDS Jesus (and God) is part of a cycle. Also, the LDS Jesus is not exactly born of a virgin if the Heavenly Father is of flesh and blood, whether he's immortal or not.

Fiona.......There is only one Jesus Christ and we believe in the same one that the Catholics believe in and the same one that all of the off-shoot Protestant denominations believe in as well. Their understanding of the Savior and salvation is based on traditional Christian orthodoxy that has been debated since the early church fell into apostasy .....and particularly since the Protestant reformation. It is odd to me that they think they know what we believe better than we do. There is only one Gospel and only one plan of salvation. We know that the Gospel was restored in it's fullness and that since that time we have been led by living Prophets and Apostles. We have an additional record that clarifies the Biblical teachings....that was preserved for our day and time to stand as an additional witness that Jesus is the Christ. If you think that some of the deeper doctrine of the church is confusing to you.....the baloney that this person PM'ed you shows that he/she is even more confused. To quote a late Apostle," the things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit." And this person...these people don't have it. Don't let them tell you what we believe, because they don't know, as evidenced by the blather that they sent you. The Father is not a personage of flesh and blood.....he is a glorified personage of flesh and bone. We believe and the scriptures confirm this....BOM, Bible......that Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father and was born of a virgin. Alma Ch.7 Verse 10, "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."

But the Jesus I know is actually God in the Flesh, and the Gospel I know is about the pursuit of God for us, and of us for Him in return. The term in hebrew "Son of" is a means of classification. So when Jesus said that he is the Son of Man, it means that he represents all mankind before God and that he is by nature human. He is also the Son of God, which means that he represents God to us and is by nature God. The peacemkers are called sons of God because they emulate God's nature. The pharisees are called sons of the devil, or sons of perdition because they emulate the devil's nature.

Ok....Jesus Christ is Jehovah...the God of the Old Testament in the flesh. He is the only begotten Son of the Father. He is the Son of Man of Holiness. Man of Holiness is another name for Heavenly Father. Moses Ch. 6 Verse 57,.....for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.". He does represent God to us......by his character, by his attributes, by his example,...

So it comes down to this: which Jesus saved us? The Jesus who is a god, or the Jesus who is God? I believe in the latter, because he accepted worship from people during his earthly ministry which would be blasephemous if he were not indeed the One True God. I'll leave it there.

He saved us because he accepted worship?????? Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father, he is the Son of the Living God and salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way. He drank the Father's bitter cup and took upon himself the sins of all mankind on conditions of repentance.

Are the things he said about Joseph Smith correct? What does our church teach regarding these NT verses?

Rest assured, I will not be swayed into thinking the LDS church is 'lies' just because of some random PM but I will not deny it leaves me squirming, much like that talk I heard on Sunday that I just wish I would have stayed home and not heard!!

Fiona...the church is true and as we progress spiritually the Spirit teaches us sacred truths as we are ready to recieve them. We are all at different places spiritually and some have a greater undertanding than others. But don't be dismayed....all in due time. We are Eternal beings and some things we won't understand for a very long time. The person who PM'ed you doesn't understand our doctrine.....God's doctrine, he misrepresented so many things....things commonly found on Anti web sites....he doesn't even understand the truth that he has......

[changed]

Originally Posted by fiona84

Okay....some one PMed me the following information. It has added to my confusion and I have no rebuttal for it, nor an explaination....but of course i feel offended because I AM LDS at the end of the day and I WANT badly to be able to feel good about defending this doctrine, but honestly, I just can't right now. And this isn't helping:

[I]"You are right, "mean" mormons are on the endangered species list! And I do not believe all mormons are going to hell, some really do understand the grace of God and the fruit shows it, I've met them. I beleive the "Church of the Lamb" and the "Church of Satan" exist in just about all churches, side by side. But nonethelesss, I would warn you that there are many harmful lies in LDS doctrine.


Before I go into the Isaiah verses I want to make it clear (and you probably already know) that the LDS Church teaches a totally different Jesus than we do (not to mention a different Gospel and Salvation which is the pursuit of Godhood). According to Joseph Smith, Jesus is only following the footsteps of his father as he followed his own father before him and so on.

Here is a non LDS link for you
Hebrew Word Studies
from the Hebrew word translated as "creator"
A seed is the beginning of new life which came from the parent plant. This cycle will continue for generation after generation.
Meaning: a continuation of life from a seed ...

other roots - A rising and setting sun - another "cycle"

The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for.

So, Hebrews never wrote about G-d forming everything out of nothing. They wrote about a continuing eternal cycle in which G-d refines, organizes, forms what eternally exists. This agrees with science – thermodynamic conservation principles – in short, you don’t get something from nothing. That we are now surrounded by something means that there has always been and always will be “something” – changing from one form to another, but everything is eternally existent.

consider this verse:
Rev 1:66 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

sounds like G-d has a Father...

consider:
Psa 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Matt 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The plural of child is children
The plural of cherub is cherubim
The plural of El / Eloha? Eloheim…

Yes, we teach the doctrine of eternal progression. What else would there be to do in heaven? in eternity? eternal "life" - life is something that grows. Stop growing, and you stop living IMO.


Anyways, I have found more of this kind of stuff in the Bible than in the BoM...

[EarthyAngel]

For what it's worth... my parents joined the Church AFTER learning this doctrine. It's really what convinced them to be baptized.

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Fiona.......There is only one Jesus Christ and we believe in the same one that the Catholics believe in and the same one that all of the off-shoot Protestant denominations believe in as well. Their understanding of the Savior and salvation is based on traditional Christian orthodoxy that has been debated since the early church fell into apostasy .....and particularly since the Protestant reformation. It is odd to me that they think they know what we believe better than we do.
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Hello bytor,

I will do my best to give you the same latitude and respect that you have given me several times.

I am not sure it would be fair or accurate to imply we ( Catholics and LDS ) believe in the same Jesus Christ ??

To suggest the " early church " fell into apostasy and in the same sentence to add that "particulary since the Protestent reformation " seems to be a HUGE contradiction in itself. ( this contradiction has nothing to do with your claim of the " apostasy " which I obviously do not agree with )

God bless,
Carl

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hello bytor,

I will do my best to give you the same latitude and respect that you have given me several times.

I am not sure it would be fair or accurate to imply we ( Catholics and LDS ) believe in the same Jesus Christ ??

To suggest the " early church " fell into apostasy and in the same sentence to add that "particulary since the Protestent reformation " seems to be a HUGE contradiction in itself. ( this contradiction has nothing to do with your claim of the " apostasy " which I obviously do not agree with )

God bless,
Carl

Hello Ceeboo,

Ok.....perhaps what I should have said is, that since the Protestant reformation confusion over the nature of God and salvation abounds. And yes, I know that you don't believe in the apostasy...your Catholic....but it is a Biblically prophesied event.

There is only one Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God...Savior and Redeemer of Mankind.....agreed? We differ in our understanding of him..perhaps...but not his mission, right? Mission to satisfy the demands of justice, to make mercy available because of the penalties of a broken law.....to atone for each of us so our sins may be forgiven....yes?

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Hello Ceeboo,

Ok.....perhaps what I should have said is, that since the Protestant reformation confusion over the nature of God and salvation abounds. And yes, I know that you don't believe in the apostasy...your Catholic....but it is a Biblically prophesied event.

There is only one Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God...Savior and Redeemer of Mankind.....agreed? We differ in our understanding of him..perhaps...but not his mission, right? Mission to satisfy the demands of justice, to make mercy available because of the penalties of a broken law.....to atone for each of us so our sins may be forgiven....yes?

Hi again my very respected friend bytor,

Not that you need to please me but for what it's worth your " clarified " definition of Jesus Christ IS ABSOBATOOTLY THE SAME AS US CRAZY CATHOLICS.

" The Great Apostasy " is a Scripture prophesied event ?????? ( DO TELL )

God bless,
Carl

[pam]

Ceeboo you are awesome. I wish everyone was as respectful as you are. I've told you this personally, but so glad you have joined the site.

[fiona84]

Thanks everyone.

I feel a lot better about it this evening. Believe it or not, it was my non-member husband (whom I was so worried about after that darn speaker on Sunday) that actually made me feel better.
I did not discuss this 'issue' with him really, but today he said some really nice things about the church and it reminded me why I was upset in the first place....because he was there, and its HIM I really want to join the church. And why do I want him to join the church so badly? Because I believe in it!

I just don't feel its a very endearing concept to investigators or even converts like myself. Maybe it will take time...and while I'm not going to jump on the godhood bandwagon any time soon, and I do not have a testimony of it despite the great responses on here,I feel assured that my over all testimony isn't going to be hindered like i worried it would be yesterday.

Originally Posted by pam

Ceeboo you are awesome. I wish everyone was as respectful as you are. I've told you this personally, but so glad you have joined the site.

Hi Pam

Too kind ( thank you )

I think this forum is filled ( you certainly included ) with several awesome people who respect and do there very best to contribute under the umbrella of love and Christianity.

This is the main reason I have stayed and am now " senior member " ceeboo

God bless,
Carl