Uncomfortable Doctrine

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

I don't think you are understanding me. I don't think I ever said being worshipped was evil or undesirable. I just believe that the idea that we may be worshipped in the hereafter is speculation. I think I have explained myself so much I perhaps may turn blue at any moment.

Misshalfway: Please do not think that I do not respect you, I value your opinion - you are so correct - I do not understand and there must be something about my thinking but I do not seem to be able to get at the heart of it. Perhaps you or someone could explain one simple principle to me.

How can anyone be one with G-d and not be connected in any way what-so-ever to the worship of him?

I believe that if we are indeed "one" with G-d, as we are commanded, we are directly connected to him in every way to every aspect associated (even remotely) to him - without any reservation what-so-ever and that we will gladly proclaim our acceptance of every aspect – regardless of the views and criticisms of the world. If we are not a part of his worship then we know for sure that we are not really one with him. It does appear to me that there are many that do not desire or in reality seek to be one with G-d. And this, my friends - I do not understand from anyone that calls themselves Christian or a believer in the ancient G-d of Abraham proclaimed to us in scripture and by prophets.

The Traveler

[bytor2112]

Hello Ceeboo,

here an article that may be of interest to you.....

Church Publications (HTML)

[livy111us]

I also skipped most of the comments posted, but to answer the original question, this belief has been taught since Christs time. I am a big fan of early Christianity, and it is constantly taught, and can be seen throughout time even until the Restoration. I have a lot of quotes and info on this, so if you have any questions, feel free to drop me a line. In the meantime, this should answer your question:
Deification of man - FAIRMormon

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Hello Ceeboo,

here an article that may be of interest to you.....

Church Publications (HTML)

Hello Mr. bytor,

Thanks for sharing the info, I have also read some similar contributions on the Jeff Lindsay site ( he is an LDS apologist ).

Rather then offer you counter articles and contributions made in rebutal to such claims, I am not sure that CAF articles, Ensign articles, or any other bias articles for that matter are appropriate or fair considering the perspectives we both hold, I will simply suggest that the Ensign aricle you shared was written to support the LDS claim that it MUST SUPPORT for very obvious reasons. I, to be very transparent with you, consider the article to be very slanted as well as very self-serving. ( THAT IS MOST LIKELY DUE TO MY OWN BIAS, to be fair )

I do sincerly appreciate the ability that we have in this forum to share opposing beliefs while still lending eachother the respect, dignity, and Christian tone that seems to be very much alive. I thank you ( as well as many others ) for that.

IMHO, the opportunity that exists to learn, appreciate, and share our different views represent a tremendous platform that WE ALL can gain from as well as be humbled by.

Thanks again for the kind manner that your choose to communicate with.

God bless,
Carl

[Vanhin]

Dear ceeboo,

Though evidence exists of a general falling away, as our biased sources and interpretations affirm, our knowledge of the Great Apostasy is a result of direct revelation. In otherwords, we do not believe that an apostasy occurred merely because of textual or historical evidence; we believe that an apostasy occured because God told us so.

When Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees to pray, his object was not to form a new religion, but to find out which of the many Christian religions he should join. In a glorious vision, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in answer to his prayer:

...When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (Joseph Smith - History 1:17-19)

We believe that an apostasy had occurred because God told us so. Simple as that. If He thinks it happened, then who has something that can counter that? What link can you send Him that will convince him that it did not?

The only question that really matters is: "Did the experience of Joseph Smith, that we call the First Vision, really happened or not?"

Regrards,
Vanhin

Originally Posted by Vanhin

Dear ceeboo,

Though evidence exists of a general falling away, as our biased sources and interpretations affirm, our knowledge of the Great Apostasy is a result of direct revelation. In otherwords, we do not believe that an apostasy occurred merely because of textual or historical evidence; we believe that an apostasy occured because God told us so.

When Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees to pray, his object was not to form a new religion, but to find out which of the many Christian religions he should join. In a glorious vision, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in answer to his prayer:

...When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (Joseph Smith - History 1:17-19)

We believe that an apostasy had occurred because God told us so. Simple as that. If He thinks it happened, then who has something that can counter that? What link can you send Him that will convince him that it did not?

The only question that really matters is: "Did the experience of Joseph Smith, that we call the First Vision, really happened or not?"

Regrards,
Vanhin

Hello Vanhin,

I am aware of the account of the first vision ( JS )
To be clear, the discussion was about bytor's claim that the " Great Apostasy " was prophesied by NT scripture. Given only scripture, and not adding the 1820's, JS, or the BofM, I can see no support for such a monumental claim.

I will respectfuly pass on replying to JS's vision that includes the " abomination " ( sorry)

" Who has something to counter the vision "?? or " send me a link to convince me that it did not happen "??? How can I ( or anyone on the planet ) prove or counter a claim if the very claim under discussion is not subscribed to?????

" Did the first vision really happen or not " I would kindly an gently suggest that the answer to that question is most assuradly what makes you LDS and I catholic.


God bless,
Carl

[candyprpl]

Originally Posted by fiona84

Thanks everyone.

I feel a lot better about it this evening. Believe it or not, it was my non-member husband (whom I was so worried about after that darn speaker on Sunday) that actually made me feel better.
I did not discuss this 'issue' with him really, but today he said some really nice things about the church and it reminded me why I was upset in the first place....because he was there, and its HIM I really want to join the church. And why do I want him to join the church so badly? Because I believe in it!

I just don't feel its a very endearing concept to investigators or even converts like myself. Maybe it will take time...and while I'm not going to jump on the godhood bandwagon any time soon, and I do not have a testimony of it despite the great responses on here,I feel assured that my over all testimony isn't going to be hindered like i worried it would be yesterday.

I've read all the posts - phew! When I read this post of yours, I had been thinking all along that the main source of your upset was that your husband was hearing this talk. I think the way the talk was presented (given your statements about it) would also make me a little uncomfortable. There have been times when I've been in Sacrament and had a talk concern me -- I know that I can pray and receive answers about the talk, but I will be concerned with the investigators hearing such talks. I'm a fairly new convert too and what seams to settle my heart and mind most is to always go back to why I joined the Church, my testimony. I know that I am learning 'line upon line.' It's good to hear your husband can focus on the good things about the Church. That alone will take him a long way.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hello Vanhin,

I am aware of the account of the first vision ( JS )
To be clear, the discussion was about bytor's claim that the " Great Apostasy " was prophesied by NT scripture. Given only scripture, and not adding the 1820's, JS, or the BofM, I can see no support for such a monumental claim.

I will respectfuly pass on replying to JS's vision that includes the " abomination " ( sorry)

" Who has something to counter the vision "?? or " send me a link to convince me that it did not happen "??? How can I ( or anyone on the planet ) prove or counter a claim if the very claim under discussion is not subscribed to?????

" Did the first vision really happen or not " I would kindly an gently suggest that the answer to that question is most assuradly what makes you LDS and I catholic.


God bless,
Carl

Carl, being a convert to the church, my advice is to approach this vision as I did. I didn't want to know if the Book of Mormon was true and correct from Him but rather that Joseph Smith was called by Him, did the first vision really happen, and this was His church.

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hello Vanhin,

I am aware of the account of the first vision ( JS )
To be clear, the discussion was about bytor's claim that the " Great Apostasy " was prophesied by NT scripture. Given only scripture, and not adding the 1820's, JS, or the BofM, I can see no support for such a monumental claim.

That's fine. I'm just letting you know why we claim there was an apostasy. Any serious study of this belief of ours has to ultimately include a discussion about the First Vision, because that, above all other reasons, is why we believe it.

I will respectfuly pass on replying to JS's vision that includes the " abomination " ( sorry)

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying you don't wish to have a conversation about the First Vision because it has the word "abomination" in it? Why not?

" Who has something to counter the vision "?? or " send me a link to convince me that it did not happen "??? How can I ( or anyone on the planet ) prove or counter a claim if the very claim under discussion is not subscribed to?????

Exactly. That is why it all comes down to whether the First Vision really occurred or not. That's the question that must be answered. If you knew for sure that it did happen, wouldn't that change your opinion about whether you would subscribe to it or not?

" Did the first vision really happen or not " I would kindly an gently suggest that the answer to that question is most assuradly what makes you LDS and I catholic.

God bless,
Carl

Well no, that doesn't answer the question. I'll explain. The fact that I (LDS) believe it, does not make it true; and so the fact that you (Catholic) do not believe does not make it false. It either actually happened or it did not. The reality of that event is true or false, regardless of whether you or I choose to believe it or not. So, the actual answer to the question, "Did the First Vision really occur?" is paramount to all questions regarding the validity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm not asking if you know the answer, I'm suggesting that the answer to that question is the most important to the authenticity of our religion. Do you agree?

Sincerely,
Vanhin

Originally Posted by Vanhin

That's fine. I'm just letting you know why we claim there was an apostasy. Any serious study of this belief of ours has to ultimately include a discussion about the First Vision, because that, above all other reasons, is why we believe it.



I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying you don't wish to have a conversation about the First Vision because it has the word "abomination" in it? Why not?



Exactly. That is why it all comes down to whether the First Vision really occurred or not. That's the question that must be answered. If you knew for sure that it did happen, wouldn't that change your opinion about whether you would subscribe to it or not?



Well no, that doesn't answer the question. I'll explain. The fact that I (LDS) believe it, does not make it true; and so the fact that you (Catholic) do not believe does not make it false. It either actually happened or it did not. The reality of that event is true or false, regardless of whether you or I choose to believe it or not. So, the actual answer to the question, "Did the First Vision really occur?" is paramount to all questions regarding the validity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm not asking if you know the answer, I'm suggesting that the answer to that question is the most important to the authenticity of our religion. Do you agree?

Sincerely,
Vanhin

Hi again Vanhin,

I greatly appreciate your efforts and perspective

Why you claim there was an apostasy- Yes, I fully realize the importance of the apostasy claim by LDS leading to " restore " ( thank you for that )
I was simply offering a different view that there was not a Great Apostasy " nor is there any evidence in NT for it.

I will try " abomination " ( short answer as to not get caught up in nor divert from the topic at hand ) Nicene Creed, year 520 or so, adopted by the only Christian Church that was available on the planet. JS implies in 1820ish that the Creed is an abomination.
Try, if you would, understand how some may find that enormously insulting especially when you consider that many do not adhere to the " first vision " or the next several things that followed. Not sure I did a very good job with that but I did try.

I would absolutly agree that the " first vision " is indeed paramount to what the LDS faith is built on. I would further suggest that all following visions by all prophets, from first ( JS )
to current ( Monson sp?? sorry ) should be completly accepted without contradiction or " speculation " as to the evaluation of the authenticity of all it's total claims.

I would agree that the evaluation of the authenticty of the first vision claim is a large part of your religion, but all the following prophetic claims and doctrine are certainly a part of that " restoration ".

Thanks for your ear,

God bless,
Carl