Uncomfortable Doctrine

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by YoungMormonRoyalist

Here's an interesting little tid bit for you all. In the original greek the new testament was written in the word hell used in Matthew 16: 18 is translated from Hades, meaning death. So the actual words should be "And death shall not prevail against it."

In fact, in some coptic scripture used by the Ethiopian Christians and other Orthodox religions the words "But it shall be renewed, resurrected as I was" are added to the verse.

Greek Lexicon: Strong's Number 86

86 haides, hah'-dace; from 1 (as a neg. particle) and 1492; prop. unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls

Mormon Doctrine as most do not like to see, Elder McConkie explains it:

Gates of Hell

See CHAINS OF HELL, HELL. Lucifer leaves the gates of hell wide open so that all who will yield to his enticements can enter that abode of darkness and sorrow. The path of sin leads to the gates of hell; unrepentant persons carry their own sins which are the tickets of admission granting entrance through those mammoth gates.

Figuratively, these gates beckon to the unwary, inviting them to enter, and these gates of hell are said to prevail against those who by sin cast their lot with Lucifer and thus go to hell. But those who accept the gospel, join the Church, live in righteousness and faith, and endure to the end, have the promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. (D. & C. 10:69; 17:8; 18:5; 21:6; 33:13; 98:22; 3 Ne. 11:39.) To Peter the Lord said that the gates of hell should never prevail against the rock of revelation. (Matt. 16:18.)

Originally Posted by Vanhin

For his own purposes, God has opted to bring about the restoration in this manner. He prepared and called a prophet, and revealed his will to him. Then, He commanded his prophet to share the message with others. From that stand point, Joseph Smith's experience is not unique. The Bible is full of the same pattern. Moses, for example, was called as a prophet, and given a message to share with the Israelites, and ultimately the world at large. So, if the Bible is used as a guide, then we must at least admit that an event like the First Vision is not only possible, but probable considering how long it had been since God had called a prophet.

It is evident from the scriptures that God reveals his will through righteous men called prophets. Indeed, the Bible plainly teaches us this fact:


Even the early Church, established by Jesus Christ, would be built upon a foundation of apostles and prophets, Christ himself, being the chief corner stone.



How do you suppose God reveals truth to us?

Sincerely,
Vanhin

Thank you as well Vanhin,

I have seriously considered not making this post as to not seem argumentative but have decided to share in hopes that we can extend our thoughts to eachother in an even light for mutual benefit and fairness.

Your comments to me seem to take as FACT the prophet ( JS ), how God has chosen to restore his church. In addition you use the early Church to strengthen your claims.

There is indeed an alternate perspective on this, I will try and share mine with you while trying my best to be fair and respectful to your beliefs, as you have to mine.

The " restoration " was to restore the Church back to the early church days ( before the JS claim of great apostasy and due to the broken line of apostles ) agreed ?
Well IMHO ( with a hint of Catholic bias ) the early Church writers do not strengthen the LDS claim at all, Rather drastically weaken it, the early Church writers ( Ignatious, Eusebius, Clemente,Polycarp, etc ) Write nothing at all about this Great Apostasy, In addition, it is my further humble opinion that they also wrote nothing about much of the Mormon Doctrine that is claimed to be restored ( not to mention they seemingly never knew or heard of a Mormon ).

" How do I suppose God reveals truth to us "
IMHO, there are many ways, but the primary way that he did was to send his son to tell us directly from his mouth what we needed and should know through his teachings, love, examples,parables,. To be clear I ( Catholic ) believe God was the one who revealed truth to us directly from God )

God bless,
Carl

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Greek Lexicon: Strong's Number 86

86 haides, hah'-dace; from 1 (as a neg. particle) and 1492; prop. unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls

Mormon Doctrine as most do not like to see, Elder McConkie explains it:

Hi Hemi,

I have seen others as well.

To me, I guess we all have to decide who's basket we place all our eggs,
Elder McConkie, any other man, or the Lord and Savior the Divine Jesus Christ.

God bless,
Carl

[HiJolly]

Ceeboo -- it's PolycARp, not what you wrote... :-)


HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hello HiJolly,

Thanks so much for the wealth of perspective you have shared.

My pleasure.

Originally Posted by ceeboo

For what i's worth, I look forward ( hope not real soon though ) that we all can smile and talk about this in HIS KINGDOM some day.

Amen.

Originally Posted by ceeboo

You and many others here also rock!! ( I wonder if that means Peter LOL )

Like I was saying, the rock is revelation. (ducking)


HiJolly

Originally Posted by HiJolly

Ceeboo -- it's PolycARp, not what you wrote... :-)


HiJolly

OOOOOOPS ( SORRY )

You are indeed correct, thank you for pointing that out ( of all the things I could have mispelled ??? go figure LOL

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Thank you as well Vanhin,

I have seriously considered not making this post as to not seem argumentative but have decided to share in hopes that we can extend our thoughts to eachother in an even light for mutual benefit and fairness.

Ceeboo,

No worries. Feel free to speak your mind.

Your comments to me seem to take as FACT the prophet ( JS ), how God has chosen to restore his church. In addition you use the early Church to strengthen your claims.

Well, I hope you can see that my comments also recognize and appreciate, that you do not accept these things as facts.

The truth is, I do accept the Joseph Smith story as fact, and I approach this topic as someone who knows it to be true, addressing someone who clearly does not. I am a life long member of the Church, having joined at the age of 9. For me, the path to this knowledge started at option #2 and then, inevitably I was faced with option #3.

What I have attempted to explain to you, is that God calls prophets. That is how he operates, and the scriptures are a testament to that. Even after his ascension into Heaven, Jesus Christ directed the afairs of his kingdom through the apostles, by way of revelation. You would have to totally ignore many important parts of the Bible to come to some other conclusion.

So, one thing I am trying to establish, is that it is plausible, and entirely possible that the pesky Mormons are right about this; or at the very least, that something like this can happen. I am curious about whether you believe that it is a possibility that what we claim is true?

There is indeed an alternate perspective on this, I will try and share mine with you while trying my best to be fair and respectful to your beliefs, as you have to mine.

The " restoration " was to restore the Church back to the early church days ( before the JS claim of great apostasy and due to the broken line of apostles ) agreed ?

Yes.

Well IMHO ( with a hint of Catholic bias ) the early Church writers do not strengthen the LDS claim at all, Rather drastically weaken it, the early Church writers ( Ignatious, Eusebius, Clemente,Polycrap, etc ) Write nothing at all about this Great Apostasy, In addition, it is my further humble opinion that they also wrote nothing about much of the Mormon Doctrine that is claimed to be restored ( not to mention they seemingly never knew or heard of a Mormon ).

I appreciate your opinion on this. It's not my intention to try to prove to you that an apostasy happened. That is not necessary for unbelievers to accept, when discussing our claims. It's only important to understand that we believe there was an apostasy, and why we believe that; which are facts that I think you understand by now. You know that Mormons believe there was an apostasy, and that they believe it because of the First Vision.

You also understand and agree that if the First Vision did not occur, then we definetly are wrong about our claims. that's how vital that experience is to our church.

" How do I suppose God reveals truth to us "
IMHO, there are many ways, but the primary way that he did was to send his son to tell us directly from his mouth what we needed and should know through his teachings, love, examples,parables,. To be clear I ( Catholic ) believe God was the one who revealed truth to us directly from God )

God bless,
Carl

The other thing I was trying to establish with you, is that we can know directly from God the truth. Before talking about that, I wanted to know how you think God reveals truth. So, I thank you for your answer.

You say that there are many ways God reveals truth to us, but the primary way is through his Son; namely his teachings, and example. I agree with that. But what I really wanted to know, is how do you think a person can know that the teachings of Jesus Christ, or the prophets, represent truth?

For example, if you take a Bible to someone who has never seen it before or even heard of Jesus Christ, how can they find out for themselves that it really is the word of God? How do you think?

Sincerely,
Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by candyprpl

You know Vanhin,
When I prayed to know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was the restored Church of Christ, I did get that comfirmation in a miraculous way. Since joining this forum I have had a lot of questions. I've taken all of this to the Lord in prayer. I'm not sure about this, but I don't think I'm getting any definite answers. I'm not bold enough to say what I'm really thinking. But, I do know they are my thoughts right now and not answers to my prayers. Sorry, just rambling. Sometimes it helps me sort out my thoughts.

Howdy

What was your experience like when you prayed about the Church? Do you mind sharing the story?

Regards,
Vanhin

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by HiJolly

Ceeboo -- it's PolycARp, not what you wrote... :-)


HiJolly

I think the items in question of both spellings can be found in Salt Lake County's Jordan River. One requires bait and a hook, the other a net.

[richlittell]

CeeBoo,

Don't let these lifelong Mormons get you down.
I'm a convert to the LDS church and very well understand that other denominations have difficulty with Joseph Smith, and prophets, and revelation and restoration.
We (LDS) claim the need to have constant revelation, while other denominations see no need for it because they have the ultimate, the testimony of Jesus Christ through the Bible. If Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses why could he not just as well have fulfilled all the prophets too? Jesus Christ pretty much gave us the formula for good living and most importantly salvation, any thing more or less than this seemed, well cultish to me before I converted. I mean, come on, a man saying he is a prophet of God? And if some man outside our (LDS) church said he was a prophet of God, what would we Mormons think? We would think that poor man was wacko. It's a tough doctrine.

So how do we know if a man is a prophet? Beats me, inspiration I suppose, but many have prayed and not felt such inspiration. The scriptures say by their fruits you shall know them. So I suppose we could look at that too. But that's not always convincing either.

For me, it was just a need to know more. The Christian doctrines of the several denominations I belonged to simply failed to answer most questions that I had personally about spiritual matters. Why must people who have never heard the gospel burn in hell if God is truly a loving and merciful God? How could a good man who is not a Christian burn in hell while those who are "saved" Christians but not actually good people go to heaven? Why must children burn in hell if they aren't baptized? Exactly what really did happen in those three days after Christ died and before he was resurrected? How can God be three individuals and one at the same time, is he spirit or body? And so forth and so on... Seems the only church doctrines that satisfactorily answered all my questions, after years of study, was the LDS church. And although the Bible doesn't "prove" LDS doctrine, it doesn't disprove it either, so from my perspective the LDS doctrine is still in harmony with the Bible.

For me, I back tracked from there. If these things are true (and I never felt a greater peace in my life than I did when I learned these doctrines), and if the teachings only lead to peace, love, understanding and good, then they must be from God. And where do we get those teachings? From the Book of Mormon and the D&C, (those things the Bible doesn't directly answer). And from where came the B.O.M and D&C.? Joseph Smith. Well, then I started to believe that he was at least an intelligent, spiritual, and inspired man. But wait... what is an inspired man who reveals spiritual truths to those seeking real answers to difficult spiritual questions? That would be a prophet, and that would be ...... Joseph Smith. (And to be honest, from my background, I didn't like that, but as I continued to pray and truly study out all the answers to my unanswered spiritual questions with an open mind to the LDS perspective, after having tried all others, I finally gained a testimony of those teachings, and the source thereof.

Of course, I won't expect you or anyone to believe me. I just like having the chance to tell my own journey.

cheers