Uncomfortable Doctrine

To All,

In regards to the last several posts and directly because It was and never is my intention to " force people in an uncomfortable spot " I will simply offer a few statements as thanks for the obviously very challenging topics.

1. I love you all
2. I am probably more confused now than I was yesterday regarding LDS prophets , the LDS doctrine and indeed the LDS " official teachings ".

3. I will intentionaly " back off " and maybe play the question game for a while
4.

God bless and thanks for all you have shared.
Carl

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Each case was different for any given scribe. Even Joseph's own first vision was not written for years afterward and made several revisions. Even my own conversion had revisons. This is no surprise.

There is more than being accountable to just official statements from the church. You still have to account for any given truths from the Godhead directly, the Holy Ghost, or ministering spirits.

By "accountable" I meant responsible for in the judgment of others.

With respect, I think that we are more likely to be judged by the laws we are aware of on earth than by any other deeper doctrine or understanding taught to us directly by God. But of course I may be wrong, that's up to Him. It just seems more just that we would be judged by our obedience or lack of obedience to those things we bring into our limited mortal awareness. Even great revelations from God must then be filtered through our physical faculties prior to it becoming part of our mortal awareness and understanding.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by HiJolly

So true. Spoken like a true mystic!


HiJolly

We have many here....

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by HiJolly

Oh, Hemi. I totally agree with your second paragraph, but your first shows what I have found to be trouble RE: doctrine.

As a mystic, I have had plenty of time to ponder the difference between the personal and the institutional aspects of our faith. And there ARE differences. For example, doctrine as an institutional concept. Doctrine is not all truth, it is the truth that is accepted by the institutional Church as 'official'. Thus, the limitation the Church has placed upon doctrine is that it must be in the four standard works, the declarations and proclamations of the First Presidency, and the Articles of Faith. That's IT. Nothing else. Not Conference talks, no Ensign articles, etc. (see lds.org Commentary, May 2007)

That doesn't mean that Joseph's King Follett sermon is not true, far from it. It just means that the concepts taught there are not institutionalized as the proclaimed Gospel and doctrine of the Church. I'll grant that over the years this line has been blurred, but I see the Church now taking steps to try and clarify this, and limit what 'doctrine' is. I think its a VERY good thing.


HiJolly

Again, Hijolley. You have said what I have been trying to say....but you say it so much better.

Maybe I should just follow you around and say "YEAH! What he said!"

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

To All,

In regards to the last several posts and directly because It was and never is my intention to " force people in an uncomfortable spot " I will simply offer a few statements as thanks for the obviously very challenging topics.

1. I love you all
2. I am probably more confused now than I was yesterday regarding LDS prophets , the LDS doctrine and indeed the LDS " official teachings ".

3. I will intentionaly " back off " and maybe play the question game for a while
4.

God bless and thanks for all you have shared.
Carl

Carl...continue on being yourself in questioning those topics. I for one, do read your postings.

[Elphaba]

While I often disagree with Hemi, there are also times when he is a refreshing breath of air to me.

This is because he will insist teachings, such as God was once a man who progressed to becoming a God, and that we can do the same, really was taught by the Church.

Then others come into threads like this one, saying they were never taught this. Yet Hemi talks about it as if it is a given. And where I grew up in the Church, it was a given as well.

There are three talking points I distinctly remember from my days in the Church:

1. Christ was the cornerstone of the Church.
2. Charity is not true charity unless it is given anonymously.
3. God was once a man like us, and he had progressed far enough to become our God.
4. As worthy men and women, we could progress to become a god, just like Heavenly Father, including having our own world to populate. (The idea was by the time we had become gods, Heavenly Father would still have been progressing, and thus would advise us, but that we had progressed enough we didn’t need his help as much anymore.)

Nos. 1 and 3 were practically drilled into me, and I know we spoke of them often. And to those who say I wasn’t taught these beliefs, this is not true. I was.

I am NOT saying these concepts are doctrine. From what I’ve gleaned on the apologetics sites, they are not doctrine because they are not contained in the canon.

But to those who say these beliefs were never taught, I know I was taught them. In fact, when I told my mother of President Hinckley’s comments “I don’t know that we teach it,“ she did not believe me. She said that if he had really said that, the Church would have been in an uproar.

There are other non-doctrinal items I was also taught, such as God literally had relations with Mary. I KNOW this came straight out of “Mormon Doctrine,” as I remember seeing the book in the instructor’s hands. And frankly, my shock at the words he was saying was significant. But I also know it was not taught often; rather, I suspect the instructor was excited about receiving his MD, and was gleaning his lesson plan from the book. I've also wondered if he was instructed not to teach from it again, because there were no more shocks like that one. Of course, I'll never know for sure.

So, how could it be that the Garden Grover 5th ward, in the ‘60s and ‘70s, emphatically taught that God had once been a man, and that we could become Gods, yet there are so many people, including some here, who say they were never taught these things.

And for those who doubt me, I promise you this is what I was taught as a young child/woman in Church. I am not going to pretend otherwise.

Yet so many others, here on the board, were never taught these beliefs. How is this possible?

Elphaba

[candyprpl]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

To All,

In regards to the last several posts and directly because It was and never is my intention to " force people in an uncomfortable spot " I will simply offer a few statements as thanks for the obviously very challenging topics.

1. I love you all
2. I am probably more confused now than I was yesterday regarding LDS prophets , the LDS doctrine and indeed the LDS " official teachings ".

3. I will intentionaly " back off " and maybe play the question game for a while
4.

God bless and thanks for all you have shared.
Carl

You're the greatest. I'll agree with 1 and 2 as well and I'm LDS

[bcguy]

What ever happened to the discussion of the 10 commandments? Commandment #2 "There shall be no other gods before me" It is also in
king James version Exodus 20 American King James Version
And God spoke all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD your God, which have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 You shall have no other gods before me.

4 You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And showing mercy to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain.

So when the church teaches we will be gods.. I almost left the church in the begining.

Hate to say it. I grew up with the bible seen the 10 commandments and have a firmer belief in it then the BOM.

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

While I often disagree with Hemi, there are also times when he is a refreshing breath of air to me.

This is because he will insist teachings, such as God was once a man who progressed to becoming a God, and that we can do the same, really was taught by the Church.

Taught by the Church, or taught by members of the Church? If someone is reading from Mormon Doctrine, that's not taught by the Church. That's some cowboy member being -- well, a cowboy. (not intending to insult cowboys)

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Then others come into threads like this one, saying they were never taught this. Yet Hemi talks about it as if it is a given. And where I grew up in the Church, it was a given as well.

Yup. Me too.

Originally Posted by Elphaba

There are three talking points I distinctly remember from my days in the Church:

1. Christ was the cornerstone of the Church.
2. Charity is not true charity unless it is given anonymously.
3. God was once a man like us, and he had progressed far enough to become our God.
4. As worthy men and women, we could progress to become a god, just like Heavenly Father, including having our own world to populate. (The idea was by the time we had become gods, Heavenly Father would still have been progressing, and thus would advise us, but that we had progressed enough we didn’t need his help as much anymore.)

I agree, except the 'world' business. I was taught that God handled the entire universe. Maybe that was an Arizona thing.

Originally Posted by Elphaba

...And for those who doubt me, I promise you this is what I was taught as a young child/woman in Church. I am not going to pretend otherwise.

Yet so many others, here on the board, were never taught these beliefs. How is this possible?

Elphaba

Aw, Elph, it was before Correlation, ya know? I totally relate to what you're saying, though. It WAS taught in just this way back in the 60's and 70's. Along with not reading non-mormon books and sources, which I've totally violated! Hari Krishna! Hari Hari! Hari Rama!


HiJolly

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by bcguy

What ever happened to the discussion of the 10 commandments? Commandment #2 "There shall be no other gods before me" It is also in
king James version Exodus 20 American King James Version
And God spoke all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD your God, which have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 You shall have no other gods before me.

4 You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And showing mercy to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain.

So when the church teaches we will be gods.. I almost left the church in the begining.

Hate to say it. I grew up with the bible seen the 10 commandments and have a firmer belief in it then the BOM.

How about something like "Ye shall have no other natural Father before me." Meaning I and only I am your natural Parent, so don't forget it and don't be thinking you can adopt yourself to another man and he will take my place, he never can, I am your one and only natural Heavenly Parent.