Uncomfortable Doctrine

[a-train]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

To teach the incarnation--that God became flesh and dwelt amongst us--is a wee bit different from teaching that our God was at some point not God.

Agreed and the LDS position is that God has never NOT been God.

-a-train

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Your church counts the Bible as canon--the Word of God. God does still speak today. There is prophecy. What you have that I don't is a testimony that what Joseph Smith said he saw was from God.

Since Jesus is God the Son, co-eternal with the Father, I agree that Jesus made everything. The Bible says this is so (Colossians 1). I'm not sure the signficance, but I've always considered Adam & Eve to be human parents, not brothers/sisters.

By saying Jesus is essentially distinct from the Father the pathway is opened to multiple Gods, and yes, to human deification. At the same time, the teaching, imho, drives your church outside the monotheistic theological camp.

And with that testimony of Joseph Smith being God's chosen Prophet of this dispensation of the Fulness of times, I accept that the Church of Jesus Christ was restored to this earth in these last days, as prophesied. And with that Church came the Melchizedek Priesthood, the apostolic sealing power, keys, additional scriptures and a living Prophet and Apostles to help us better understand the Bible, etc. etc. With respect, you may be missing a bit of what the Saints have... But you're always invited to join with us.

To LDS, Adam and Eve are the first parents of the physical bodies of God's children on this earth. They are also spirit children of Heavenly Father, as we are, which makes us also brothers and sisters. But my guess is that you are well aware of that as part of our beliefs.

Yes, we have a difference in belief about the nature of God, where we came from before we arrived in mortality, why we are here, and where we are going after the death of our physical bodies. That information is available to all who care to anonymously browse at Mormon.org

But I still can't wrap my mind around the trinity work around to somehow magically or mystically turn three distinct persons into one. If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and God the Father is God, then there are multiple Gods right there.

Multiple gods is mentioned many times in the scriptures, it's not just something Restoration Christians came up with. But, if you can grasp an understanding that everything is just a family affair, then it's ok for there to be multiple fathers in the order of heaven as there are multiple fathers on this earth. Only one being the natural father of each human that dwells or dwelt on this planet, and only one being the natural Father of the spirit bodies that inhabit each of those mortal tabernacles.

Seems simple enough to me, but I can understand how unfamiliar such a concept would be to those who buy into the unbiblical trinity doctrine.

You write: "It is my understanding that pre-existence, in LDS theology, is eternal--that we are an eternal intelligent essence that has been granted bodies. Have I understood wrong?"

What Latter-day Saints refer to as "pre-existence" is the period of premortal time when we lived with God after being organized by Him with a spirit body, but prior to our spirit body occupying an earthly tabernacle. So pre-existence is not "eternal" as we understand time.

There is a 'missing link' though that is seldom if ever discussed among most Latter-day Saints, called "intelligence". Intelligence has never been created, it has always existed, and always will. In my understanding, a portion of that intelligence is poured into or whatever our spirit bodies when they are created/organized by our Heavenly Parent/s. Perhaps that is what is causing the confusion.

Thank-you for interacting with me, I know you don't have to, and I know that I come on strong sometimes. Enjoy the evening or whatever it is when you read this.

[prisonchaplain]

This intelligence is eternal, but would my premortal intelligence be distinct from yours? I hate to sound scifi, but is there individual sentience within that intelligence?

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

This intelligence is eternal, but would my premortal intelligence be distinct from yours? I hate to sound scifi, but is there individual sentience within that intelligence?

Your premortal spirit body from the time it was created by Heavenly Father was distinct from mine and had the power to act for itself and make choices. It was created in the image and likeness of God. That spirit body continues to live after the death of the physical body and has opportunity to learn and progress.

Regarding the always existent "cloud of unknowing" or "intelligence" as the LDS call it, my guess is that there is no individual sentience, it's all one. But of course that is 100% speculation on my part.

I think that everything that exists has some of that intelligence within it: humans, plants, fish, animals, stones, etc. Even the earth is known in our scriptures to have a voice and speak. (The very stones we are told would have cried out if the people had not fulfilled prophesy when the Christ rode into Jerusalem on the donkey.)

But the important thing for this lifetime is our personal relationship with God and how well we keep His commandments and walk the way Jesus taught. My guess is that we will learn much more about "intelligence" at a more appropriate time.

[Vort]

Originally Posted by justamere10

Your earthly parents 'created' your brain. Are they responsible for how you use it?

My ultimate decision-making capacity does not reside in my brain. If my parents consciously created my decision-making capacity, then of course they would be responsible for it.

If God created our decision-making capacity, then very obviously he is "responsible for how [we] use it". To say otherwise is absurd, denying the very meaning of the term "decision-making capacity".

[bmy-]

Originally Posted by a-train

Agreed and the LDS position is that God has never NOT been God.

-a-train

My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.

KFD

It plainly says that at a previous time God was not exalted. He had not yet attained the office of God.

I stress plainly because there's not much room for interpretation.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by MormonMama

Now I have been specifically told that God did not have "sexual relations" with Mary, because the Bible and the Book of Mormon both explicitly state that she was a virgin. I was told (and keep in mind, I'm a convert) that we don't know how God's and Mary's "genetic material" (if you will) was combined, but that it did not involve sexual intercourse. And that's just within the last 10 years. I have also heard, as you and others have mentioned, that Mormon Doctrine is not considered "canon", but I know some members who absolutely believe that it is inspired doctrine.

I was converted/baptized in 1967- and I was taught that God's spirit passed into Mary and she became with child. I always thought that meant that the Holy Ghost was God's Spirit. Now as an adult I know that the Holy Ghost is a separate entity. Then I figured that if the spirit of John the Baptist could recognize the spirit of Jesus Christ while they were still in the wombs of their mother's, then that spirit that passed into Mary was the spirit of Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by MormonMama

I have also been taught several times over the years that we will be creators of worlds. I have always assumed that we would have our own universe, as it has also been taught to me that God is the creator of this particular universe. I, too, am in Arizona, but I know members from all over the world who have been taught this.

Me too- Me too- Also that God will always be our God for all eternity. That Jesus Christ will always be our Elder Brother and the Creator of Earth.

I was raised and joined the church in Seattle Washington. During all of my travels in the US, the wards and branches that I have attended- they have never said different.

No, Elphaba- you are not crazy, just a little bit nutty around the edges.

I also thought all wards/branches had Linger Longer's - My Sister's Ward in Seattle has had them for decades. I really enjoyed them when I went to visit her on my vacations. What a great way to socialize and get to know the members of your ward. (this was when I was inactive) Once every two or three months - they would have combined Linger Longer's with the other Wards- THAT was fun- MORE people to meet, get to know, socialize with.

My Branch in Oregon didn't have them- at least we didn't call them Linger Longer's- we just sat in the church and visited. Once in a while we would bring sack lunches/small pot lucks and eat out in the parking lot.

Then I moved here to AZ - and no one knows what I am talking about. They act as if I am talking in Greek to them! So I thought- well it is only my sister's Stake doing this.

Nope, found some members on another LDS forum who do this on Fast & Testimony Sundays. The members are from all over too- My sister in law in Enumclaw WA have them too.

[a-train]

Originally Posted by bmy-

It plainly says that at a previous time God was not exalted. He had not yet attained the office of God.

I stress plainly because there's not much room for interpretation.

OK, so are you telling me that before Christ's resurrection and subsequent exaltation He was NOT God?

-a-train

[Nappaljarri]

Originally Posted by a-train

OK, so are you telling me that before Christ's resurrection and subsequent exaltation He was NOT God?

-a-train

Go and pray about it and go to the temple (that is if you are a church member??).
The temple teachings clearly teaches to me who is the Godhead. Those who don't research much in this life about the Godhead are going to be very surprised in the next life as to who it is.

As for Christ, he was the second member of the Godhead in the pre-mortal existence, this does not mean he was exalted, else why come to earth a second time and die a second time, that would not make sense. He was a member of the Godhead without having an exalted body.

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by Nappaljarri

Go and pray about it and go to the temple (that is if you are a church member??).
The temple teachings clearly teaches to me who is the Godhead. Those who don't research much in this life about the Godhead are going to be very surprised in the next life as to who it is.

As for Christ, he was the second member of the Godhead in the pre-mortal existence, this does not mean he was exalted, else why come to earth a second time and die a second time, that would not make sense. He was a member of the Godhead without having an exalted body.

So he was in the Godhead but not God???

Well the Jehovah of the OT was pretty clear about being the beginning and the end.....you know?

But I suppose I can see your logic....just wondering how you back that up scripturally.