Uncomfortable Doctrine

[fiona84]

myway,

So true! I type in 'Mormon' or 'LDS' sometimes on Youtube just to have a look. There are alot of negative videos. The church leaders have encouraged us to use the internet for GOOD but we need to somehow dispell the negativity....or react to it or something.....

[fiona84]

Thanks bmy,

It's good to hear from the 'horses mouth'.

I don't think too much of the King Follet Sermon. :-(

I can deal with most of the Joseph Smith criticism: polygamy and drinking and peeping stones and masonic ideas and everything,but this one really bothers me for some reason.

[bmy-]

Originally Posted by fiona84

Thanks bmy,

It's good to hear from the 'horses mouth'.

I don't think too much of the King Follet Sermon. :-(

I can deal with most of the Joseph Smith criticism: polygamy and drinking and peeping stones and masonic ideas and everything,but this one really bothers me for some reason.

That's understandable. You should definitely note that the King Follet Discourse is likely not 100% accurate. It was put together by various written records. Take refuge in that fact.. but don't shy away from it. I think confronting it is the best course of action. (IMHO)

If you want to discuss it deeper.. feel free to PM me. I'm a new convert and can relate having doctrinal issues.

[Rico]

Fiona, you have a defeatist attitude. I am sure that Prison Chaplain is aware of the Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee(and if he isn't, I am sure he will be soon!). It's a really interesting study of Romans. It's really a study on the full ramifications of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I want to be 'Christ-like' and strive for perfection even though I know as a sinner, I will never be perfect like Christ.

Your sins were already paid for by the atonement. When you repent from your sins and ask forgiveness they are no more. The whole point of Christ's atonement was to blot your sins so that you could approach Heavenly Father clean and blameless. When you say something like that, you are saying that Christ's atonement isn't enough for you.

Christ's atonement is enough. It's not only enough for you, but enough for everyone man, woman, and child is who has ever lived, is living now, and will ever live.

Originally Posted by fiona84

So...I feel in heaven that even though we are created in God's image and will be able to inheret the kingdom of God, etc, he is still our one and only God, and we are not worthy to be deemed gods and godesses, even with a little 'g'.

You'd do well to reread the quote from D&C posted earlier. In it, the definition of god is made....in this case:

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end;

This high council speaker....spoke about God as if he were just a next door neighbor or something. There was no reverence to his words about 'Father', just ramblings about how we should be good so we can be gods and godesses like 'Father'. It was like he put us on equal footing or someting. He couldn't even call him 'Heavenly Father' or GOD.

If saying Father isn't reverent enough, why did Jesus teach us to say, "Our Father...." as the beginning of the Lord's prayer?

I learned about this doctrine before I even met with the missionaries in person the first time. I spent a couple of years studying and learning all that I could. This doctrine makes sense to me. It's one of many answers the D&C, Book of Mormon and other scriptures have answered for me.

I remember sitting once with an Evangelical friend who was doing a lot of studying of the Bible and seemed very wise. He said that he just loved going to church and singing and doing the altar calls and doing nothing but worship the Lord. He said that if you didn't like going to church, then you probably wouldn't like heaven. To me, it sounded like a waste.

After joining the Church, I now realize that everyone should have a calling and everyone contributes to the work of the Church. With my calling in the Church, I truly feel like I am doing my part to build up the Kingdom. I am not swooning at the feet of the Lord nor am I playing a harp all day long. If this is like the Celestial Kingdom will be, definitely count me in!

Maybe the member of the Stake High Council was trying to remind you that worshiping Our Father is also about doing good to our brothers and sisters.

[EarthyAngel]

This doctrine was introduced by Joseph Smith in his King Follett discourse (King Follett was a saint who had passed away, and the sermon was given at his funeral).

The part about us becoming Gods is in D&C 132... which also lays out the conditions of achieving that status.

This doctrine is further confirmed in the Temples... I'll not say how, lest I be smitten with the great smiting wrath of the moderation team.

Of course, I now have different personal beliefs. I believe we all have Divinity within us already, and we're just living our many lives (through reincarnation), figuring out how deepen into our divinity. It's not terribly different than the LDS doctrine.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by fiona84

To make it worse I always think of Pres. Hinkley saying "I don't know that we teach that" when asked about the godhood doctrine on Larry King. It seems like even he was uncomfortable with that!

I think President Hinckley was trying to deemphasize this speculative point.

[fiona84]

Originally Posted by Rico

Fiona, you have a defeatist attitude.

Your sins were already paid for by the atonement. When you repent from your sins and ask forgiveness they are no more. The whole point of Christ's atonement was to blot your sins so that you could approach Heavenly Father clean and blameless. When you say something like that, you are saying that Christ's atonement isn't enough for you.






If saying Father isn't reverent enough, why did Jesus teach us to say, "Our Father...." as the beginning of the Lord's prayer?

Christ's atonement IS enough for me. It is everything for me! That's why I don't want to be a god. I worship Heavenly Father and His Son for what they did for me. No one is ever going to worship ME.

Saying 'Our Father' when addressing him in prayer is different than saying 'Be nice to your spouse as this is what Father told us to do. Father wants us to be gods and godesses and in order to be like Father we need to be good,etc,etc.'

His whole talk was basically chatting about how good we should be for Father so we can be like him.

I apologize for my defeatest attitude. I am earnestly trying to get to the bottom of this issue. I'm doing that because I sincerely don't want it to bother me so much. I was hoping to find a way to come to terms with this in the way that God wants me to. I want to believe it, I wish I could. I'm finding this really upsetting.

[richlittell]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

I do not have much difficulty believing we shall be come god-like. After all, we will be glorified, and we will rule and reign with Christ. However, can I expect to some day have subjects that worship me? To me, such a belief would cross the line. Even if I remain a subject to my Heavenly Father, and continue to worship him throughout eternity, if I also believe I shall receive worship...that seems blasphemous to me. At least one LDS member has publically posted that such is unthinkable, and seems blasphemous too. Perhaps this is an area of speculation, but many non-LDS believe this is standard LDS teaching--that members expect to become Gods.

I think the problem begins with, and most people ignore, the fact of what perspective people have of God in the first place. Obviously, when I speak of God and someone of another faith speaks of God, it is very likely we are speaking about two entirely different things. That is why people of other faiths can be offended by this doctrine (or should I say perspective, as I'm not sure it qualifies as doctrine).

My perspective, then, begins with God not as some omnipotent being who is unreachable and exists for the purpose of worship, but as our "Father" in heaven. And just like I want my kids to have none of my bad qualities and more than all of my good, Heavenly Father wants that for his children as well. To become like Him someday means to have all his good qualities so that I can assist him in his eternal mission, which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life and happiness of humankind. No one can ever replace God nor supplant his position. If I am a captain in the army with all the same qualities of the General, does that mean I replace the General? no he is still the General. Whether or not someone worships me is of little importance, I doubt very seriously that even if over a thousand thousand years if I developed God's qualities I would ever be worthy of being worshipped. We are not sure that if we help to build and populate other planets, are we the gods of those planets or is Our Heavenly Father still the God of all planets, will there be a new Christ for those planets, or will Jesus be the Christ worshipped by all. None of this matters, what matters is my eternal relationship with my Heavenly Father, who is to me "Father" first, and "God" second.

[richlittell]

Originally Posted by fiona84

Christ's atonement IS enough for me. It is everything for me! That's why I don't want to be a god. I worship Heavenly Father and His Son for what they did for me. No one is ever going to worship ME.

agree.

I apologize for my defeatest attitude. I am earnestly trying to get to the bottom of this issue. I'm doing that because I sincerely don't want it to bother me so much. I was hoping to find a way to come to terms with this in the way that God wants me to. I want to believe it, I wish I could. I'm finding this really upsetting.

Don't let a talk by others get you down. I have on an occasion or two also felt uncomfortable with someone's approach to a gospel topic. Maybe this guy was just trying to make Heavenly Father seem more approachable or something. I do believe we should address him as Christ addressed him, that is either as Father in Heaven, or Heavenly Father, or God, or God of us all, an so on, something respectful.

As for the doctrine of becoming a God. This is not relevant to yours and my salvation for now. No one ever said we would be worshipped. So just relax.

Think of it this way, eternity is for a very very very long time--we cannot comprehend it. If slowly but surely over millions or billions of years I keep improving myself through Heavenly Father's guidance, I may just wake up one day to see that I am like him in every way except for his Supreme Stature.

Remember Christ's prayer [I'll paraphrase] with his apostles when he prayed to Heavenly Father that they may become one in Him as He is One in the Father and so on. Or here is a D&C that I did locate:
#
D&C 35: 2
" I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one."

This oneness we are aiming to achieve is nothing more than the ability to be righteous in all situations, to act and respond to things as would Heavenly Father and Christ, and we have billions of years to work on all this.

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by fiona84

Christ's atonement IS enough for me. It is everything for me! That's why I don't want to be a god. I worship Heavenly Father and His Son for what they did for me. No one is ever going to worship ME.

Saying 'Our Father' when addressing him in prayer is different than saying 'Be nice to your spouse as this is what Father told us to do. Father wants us to be gods and godesses and in order to be like Father we need to be good,etc,etc.'

His whole talk was basically chatting about how good we should be for Father so we can be like him.

I apologize for my defeatest attitude. I am earnestly trying to get to the bottom of this issue. I'm doing that because I sincerely don't want it to bother me so much. I was hoping to find a way to come to terms with this in the way that God wants me to. I want to believe it, I wish I could. I'm finding this really upsetting.

fiona84,

Take heart. Study the scriptures; they represent the official doctrine of this Church, and they are in harmony with your desire to worship God and only God. We are the children of God, and as such have the potential to be like him, but there is nothing in the scriptures that even suggests that we will take over. The suggestion is that we will continue his work, by bearing the souls of men, the same as has been done eternally before this time.

I personally don't take any issue with calling Heavenly Father "Father". That designation drives home the point that he literally is our Father. To Mary, Jesus taught:

Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)

The truth that "God was once a Man" is nothing to worry about either, and it can also be harmonized with revealed scripture. Not only was he a man, he is still a Man. One of his name/titles is "Man of Holiness". God revealed to Enoch this truth:

Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also. (Moses 7:35)

That scripture, as well as all the scriptures, makes it clear that God has ever been God. So, even if He did enter mortality to gain a body at some point, he was God before, during, and after, Just like Jesus Christ was:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. (Mosiah 15:1)

And just for trivia, one of the name/titles of Jesus Christ is "Son of Man".

Regards,
Vanhin