Uncomfortable Doctrine

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hey Vanhin,

I can certainly appreciate the need to go to work, even us Catholics need to do that

To " know your doctrine " ( teachings ) one would have to read the BofM and live the principles therin and seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost?????

That would lead me to believe that non LDS people ( me ) who does not do the above can not and has no way of getting an answer as to what LDS believe or teach?????????

Our Church has made it clear that our doctrine is in our canon of scripture, which includes The Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants. My point is that if you want to know our doctrine, it is in our scriptures. It doesn't mean that you can not get correct doctrine from others, including leaders, missionaries, or members. You can, when what they are teaching you is in harmony with the scriptures.

Getting MORE confused ( if that is possible )

Peace,
Carl

Don't be confused about what I said concerning living the principles in the scriptures. That method of learning doctrine is not my idea. Jesus Christ taught:

...My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. (John 17:16-18)

We claim that our doctrine is the doctrine of Jesus Christ, or in other words, the doctrine God the Father.

Sincerely,
Vanhin

[bmy-]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hey ya Misshalfway, Good to see your contributions

How can a teaching from the founder and first prophet NOT be a keystone to the very religion he started???

Further, how does one choose which ( of his prophetic claims ) are or are not worthy of being said keystone???

God bless,
Carl

I think she Misshalfway was saying that our 'standard works' are the keystone. The BOM, Bible, Pearl, D&C, and most importantly (imo) revelation. I often wonder why the KFD isn't canon.. it's supported by the church already.

I'd choose a prophet over the BOM any day. But that's just me. (And i'm a heretic )

Originally Posted by candyprpl

Ceeboo, with all do respect (I mean that) you don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and you (IMO) aren't trying to understand what he may have been trying to teach us about God.

Hello candyprpl,

Obviously, I do not believe JS was a prophet, however this personal belief does not in any way deflect my reasonable ability to read what someone said and understand it.

I would very respectfully offer that if 100 academic scholars read the same thing as I did,
ALL 100 of them would very easily determine what was said in that sermon. For the life of me, I can not understand why LDS members will not accept the teachings of their very first prophet??????????

God bless,
Carl

[Vort]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

I would very respectfully offer that if 100 academic scholars read the same thing as I did,
ALL 100 of them would very easily determine what was said in that sermon. For the life of me, I can not understand why LDS members will not accept the teachings of their very first prophet??????????

I haven't read this thread all the way through (and given its length, I don't plan to do so), so I am not sure which teaching you think Joseph Smith offered that LDS members don't accept.

However, I would point out that the funeral sermon for Elder Follett was not recorded in any official capacity, but was pieced together from accounts of those who did hear it, or in some cases perhaps heard it from someone who heard it. In such cases, it's difficult to determine precisely what the Prophet said. When an important doctrinal point hinges on a single word, phrase, or expression (e.g. "God was as we are" vs. "God was once mortal" vs. "God was once sinful"), such precision of wording becomes important. When that precision is lacking, no larger gospel doctrine can safely be drawn from the record.

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hello candyprpl,

Obviously, I do not believe JS was a prophet, however this personal belief does not in any way deflect my reasonable ability to read what someone said and understand it.

I would very respectfully offer that if 100 academic scholars read the same thing as I did,
ALL 100 of them would very easily determine what was said in that sermon. For the life of me, I can not understand why LDS members will not accept the teachings of their very first prophet??????????

God bless,
Carl

Ceeboo,

A strong testimony of Joseph Smith is a good indication of a strong testimony in the Restored Gospel.....IMO. I absolutely accept the teachings of our great Prophet.....as do most faithful Saints. I tend to look at this bit of deep doctrine like this.......we are eternal beings, our Spirits..and one day our physical bodies will be uncorruptable as well. The Savior had to attain a mortal body and work out his salvation as well......

From Elder Bruce R McConkie:

Christ worked out his own salvation. This is something of which uninspired men have no comprehension. Truly, he was the Lord Omnipotent before the world was; truly, he was like unto the Father in the premortal life; truly, he was the Son of God here on earth--and yet, with it all, as with all the spirit children of the same Father, he too was subject to all of the terms and conditions of the Father's plan.

He also was born on earth to undergo a mortal probation, to die, to rise again in immortal glory, to be judged according to his works, and to receive his place of infinite glory in the eternal kingdom of his Everlasting Father. How well Paul said:

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

And being made perfect, he became the author [that is, the cause] of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. [Hebrews 5: 8*9]

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by Vort

I haven't read this thread all the way through (and given its length, I don't plan to do so), so I am not sure which teaching you think Joseph Smith offered that LDS members don't accept.

However, I would point out that the funeral sermon for Elder Follett was not recorded in any official capacity, but was pieced together from accounts of those who did hear it, or in some cases perhaps heard it from someone who heard it. In such cases, it's difficult to determine precisely what the Prophet said. When an important doctrinal point hinges on a single word, phrase, or expression (e.g. "God was as we are" vs. "God was once mortal" vs. "God was once sinful"), such precision of wording becomes important. When that precision is lacking, no larger gospel doctrine can safely be drawn from the record.

Thank you Vort.

Ceeboo, this is part of what I was trying to explain to you on another thread.

You have to understand one thing about this church. The "Rock" we have been talking about is revelation....for us. That means that a fallible man can receive a revelation from God. Those prophets are not perfect. We accept that they are not perfect. We also accept that not every single word that comes from their lips is revelation. Joseph made sure that the people knew that he was not a perfect person and not to expect him to be.

We believe that Joseph was a prophet and we look to what he did produce in terms of solid doctrinal revelation as a catalyst for our own personal revelation on the subject. We dont' believe Joseph just because he said he saw God and Jesus in a vision in a grove of trees one day. We believe because we have asked God and received our own personal witness that what happened that day and what happened on subsequent other days was in fact the truth. That is the rock of the church. That is the rock that sustains all of us. We are encouraged to listen to what comes from the pulpit and and understand the difference between what a prophet proclaims to the world vs. what he says in his backyard. And the Spirit will confirm or disprove it all. Ceeboo, this is beauty of this religion. This is why we can speculate and discuss and disagree even. We are all at different places with regards to how much "confirmation" from the Spirit we have received.

These discussions about "godhood" are interesting aspects of our doctrine and there is truth there. But I have said it before and I will say it again. The line between solid doctrinal foundation and speculation gets blurry because we don't know enough!!!! These are fascinating ideas. And for those of us who do understand the basics of our faith, they make sense.... even the blurry parts and it is ok for us to say we don't know yet and that it doesn't matter for our salvation.

I wish Ceeboo, that you would look more to understanding the PRINCIPLE of eternal progression, rather than hanging onto the Follett discourse. What Vort said is exactly right. We don't have an accurate record of what was said that day. That is why it hasn't been added to our canon. It is the BofM that we hang everything on and the First vision of the Joseph Smith! Please try to understand the priority in which we put these ideas.

I wish I could convince you to start over. Put the King Follett thing aside. And read the Book of Mormon. Then.....Look at the First vision. Look at the Doctrine and Covenants. And then ....... factor in the follett!

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

I don't know if this helps or not but the king follet discourse is not the keystone of our religion. The Book of Mormon is. It is thru this book that a man gets nearer to God. Any ideas from this discourse that are true are icing on the cake.

This is not a cut to the Book of Mormon, but Jesus being the Christ is the keystone of my religion.

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by Moksha

This is not a cut to the Book of Mormon, but Jesus being the Christ is the keystone of my religion.

K. Now we are both back in seminary! Isn't Christ the cornerstone?

[bytor2112]

I wish Ceeboo, that you would look more to understanding the PRINCIPLE of eternal progression, rather than hanging onto the Follett discourse. What Vort said is exactly right. We don't have an accurate record of what was said that day. That is why it hasn't been added to our canon. It is the BofM that we hang everything on and the First vision of the Joseph Smith! Please try to understand the priority in which we put these ideas.

I agree Misshalfway........the Plan of Salvation is simple enough for all mankind, even children, to understand and accept. Our greatest example of how we should pattern our lives and of what we can become is the Savior himself. He passed through this life, working out his own salvation and passing through trials and death, was resurected to eternal glory and ransomed mankind from the fall. All we must do is have faith in him and obey his commandments....and one day we can become like him. Pretty simple.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

K. Now we are both back in seminary! Isn't Christ the cornerstone?

That's right. In masonry there are such things as keystones, cornerstones and capstones. Well, like Bob Dylan said, "Everybody must get stoned". Perhaps in this case we should put our shoulder to the wheel and push along...