Uncomfortable Doctrine

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

I don't know if this helps or not but the king follet discourse is not the keystone of our religion. The Book of Mormon is. It is thru this book that a man gets nearer to God. Any ideas from this discourse that are true are icing on the cake.

Hi Misshalfway,

The two you mention ( King Follet and BofM ) are both recieved by the exact same prophet ?? Why so much weight on one and so little on the other ??

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

I see no danger in the road. If God answers prayers, then God can answer all of these! There is nothing more safe than personal revelation.

Either JSmith was a prophet of God and the BofM is true and he did in fact see God and Jesus that day OR it is all a load of bunk!!!!!

God is the only source to find the real truth.

I mean how do you know history is right? Because it is tradition? Because lots of people believe it? How do you KNOW that your tradition is right? How do you know the Savior is the Savior? Were you there? What proof do any of us have that he walked the earth?

It would be very difficult for a Protestant or Catholic (or atheist for that matter) to prove to a faithful LDS person that Joseph Smith is not a prophet from God. And, indeed, most of us who frequent this site have no intention of doing so. Rather, we raise our questions as non-LDS, who have much that prevents us from easily accepting LDS claims. If Joseph Smith is a prophet, it means that my church is seriously wrong it so much of what it teaches. It also means that I have badly misunderstood many spiritual experiences and promptings that I have had.

So...when we discuss these things, we learn the other's perspectives, gain some new understanding of our current faith, and, in some cases, find ourselves nudged in one spiritual direction or another.

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

It would be very difficult for a Protestant or Catholic (or atheist for that matter) to prove to a faithful LDS person that Joseph Smith is not a prophet from God. And, indeed, most of us who frequent this site have no intention of doing so. Rather, we raise our questions as non-LDS, who have much that prevents us from easily accepting LDS claims. If Joseph Smith is a prophet, it means that my church is seriously wrong it so much of what it teaches. It also means that I have badly misunderstood many spiritual experiences and promptings that I have had.

So...when we discuss these things, we learn the other's perspectives, gain some new understanding of our current faith, and, in some cases, find ourselves nudged in one spiritual direction or another.

Hello PC,

I ABSOBATOOOOOOTLY 100% agree and certainly could not have said it any better.

God bless,
Carl

[richlittell]

Originally Posted by bmy-

Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton were a few who recorded this sermon. Big names.. reputable names.. honest men.

I can't speak for the church.. but for myself.. it's doctrine. I see no reasons it shouldn't be.

I can tell you why it's NOT doctrine, though it may very well be true. Just look at this thread. It is a tough and difficult concept. The church's purpose is for presenting the principles of salvation and the support of the family. There are many truths that go beyond the average person's ability to understand--especially those from different cultural backgrounds. These things will never be doctrines until the minds of the people are ready.

Ceeboo, Many prophets have spoken on thousands of topics on many occasions to diverse audiences. We do not hold every word spoken out of their mouths to be the indisputable word of God.

[richlittell]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hi Misshalfway,

The two you mention ( King Follet and BofM ) are both recieved by the exact same prophet ?? Why so much weight on one and so little on the other ??

Ceeboo, Many prophets have spoken on thousands of topics on many occasions to diverse audiences. We do not hold every word spoken out of their mouths to be the indisputable word of God.

[richlittell]

I can tell you why it's NOT doctrine, though it may very well be true. Just look at this thread. It is a tough and difficult concept. The church's purpose is for presenting the principles of salvation and the support of the family. There are many truths that go beyond the average person's ability to understand--especially those from different cultural backgrounds. These things will never be doctrines until the minds of the people are ready.

Ceeboo, Many prophets have spoken on thousands of topics on many occasions to diverse audiences. We do not hold every word spoken out of their mouths to be the indisputable word of God.

I should clarify...
The church's purpose is for presenting the principles of salvation in a manner that can be understood and accepted by most people, not for introducing confusion among those of differing backgrounds. That's why we have the Bible, the Book of Mormon, D&C, the Pearl of Great Price and the General conference talks. These are the only principles relevant to salvation. That, Ceeboo, is why not every word ever spoken from the mouth of every prophet on every occasion is considered to be a doctrine of salvation. Also, as pointed out earlier, there are many prophets, Joseph was our prophet and is not our god. Moses was our prophet once, but to this Christ added more in the fulfilling of the law and all the prophets. And so today, we have modern day prophets that help us in our current mortal state concerning the conditions of our times and the things that are most important to our salvation, and to every generation, there is a different emphasis on different aspects of the Gospel according to that generation's needs. The King Follet sermon is not relevant to our salvation. If I have difficulty understanding it or accepting it, but I live my life as Christ has taught, according to the basic principles as taught by the prophets through all ages, I shall receive my reward.

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hi Misshalfway,

The two you mention ( King Follet and BofM ) are both recieved by the exact same prophet ?? Why so much weight on one and so little on the other ??

In accordance with modern revelation, the Book of Mormon was voted upon by the body of the Church and received as scripture. The King Follett discourse was not. That is the difference. A revelation is not accepted as scripture unless it is voted upon by the membership of the Church.

HiJolly

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

It would be very difficult for a Protestant or Catholic (or atheist for that matter) to prove to a faithful LDS person that Joseph Smith is not a prophet from God. And, indeed, most of us who frequent this site have no intention of doing so. Rather, we raise our questions as non-LDS, who have much that prevents us from easily accepting LDS claims. If Joseph Smith is a prophet, it means that my church is seriously wrong it so much of what it teaches. It also means that I have badly misunderstood many spiritual experiences and promptings that I have had.

So...when we discuss these things, we learn the other's perspectives, gain some new understanding of our current faith, and, in some cases, find ourselves nudged in one spiritual direction or another.

I appreciate this. I know that our doctrine is difficult because of the very reasons you stated. If I have failed to communicate my empathetic feelings and compassion in this regard, I apologize. I know our faith challenges your faith....and all faiths, for that matter. I am aware of the boldness of the message. And I apologize for not being more sensitive in my posts to the very personal and cherished beliefs of all involved in this conversation. If I have treaded insensitively it was unintentional, I assure you.

But I also feel that any challenge to the LDS perspective deserves a counter challenge. I think the willingness to receive a challenge with respect and understanding should go both ways.

My purpose in asking my series of "How do you know questions" was an effort to help gain perspective about why we follow Joseph and how all of us can come to a consensus on truth even on at least one point. It is clear to me....that truth is like light. You can't compartmentalize light. It shines and fills space and chases darkness in an instant and is one great whole. I don't think that God gives one truth to one group or person....and another contradictory truth to the rest. I think he gives us truth line upon line, precept upon precept. And sometimes, because we are human, we don't see clearly or understand the eternal view. I can't know how God does this or why it looks the way it does to me in this world, nor can I comprehend all the vast purposes of God and why he leads people where he leads them. I only hoped that by asking such questions, that we could perhaps understand each other or at least so that Ceeboo and others can understand the process by which we have come to our conclusions. Whether he or you or anyone agrees or disagrees, is a personal thing.

Please forgive my failing to communicate empathy concerning what it must be like for you all to hear and process the LDS message. I hope I can communicate such more effectively in the future.

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Hi Misshalfway,

The two you mention ( King Follet and BofM ) are both recieved by the exact same prophet ?? Why so much weight on one and so little on the other ??

I wish that I new more about the Catholic faith so that I could draw some parallel here.

I wonder, does your clergy come to consensus on what is doctrine and what isn't? Do they discuss any spiritual communications and measure them against scripture? In your faith, are their doctrines that relate more heavily on salvation than others that perhaps fall into the "nice to know but not essential to know" catagories?

The BofM to us is like the Bible is to you. It is essential. Everything.....our entire position stands or falls on the BofM itself, meaning the way it came to be, and then the content of every word on every page.

The Follett just isn't the same animal.

I can understand your confusion. But it may help if you don't use such a black and white perspective to view spiritual revelation. I know in my own life, as God communicates to me, some answers and promptings are more important than others or carry more weight or have different purposes.

The same is true here. The BofM is a revelation to the world! It is evidence that God still speaks to man and that Christ's ministry here on this earth was not confined to Jerusalem. It is a document that is meant to be shared with every person on this planet who will receive it and we have been told that the world will be judged against the acceptance or denial of this book. We are talking serious, big kahuna business here!

King Follett is a slight, miniscule glimpse into the heavens and the eternities. A peek, a taste and ONLY that.




(DISCLAIMER: It is a little early in the morning where I am. I hope when I reread this later.....when I can focus.....it will have actually made sense. )

[Still_Small_Voice]

Originally Posted by bmy-

It was a sermon.. as such it was recorded by various people. That's not even considering the people who took notes.

It's beyond solid in my opinion. If it wasn't the LDS church wouldn't quote it in talks, ensign articles, etc. I can't believe it isn't considered scripture.

Yes, it is quoted in the Ensign (a church publication). The church does approve of the King Follett Sermon given by Joseph Smith as scripture.