Uncomfortable Doctrine

[PapilioMemnon]

I feel that one of the hardest part of having the office of a "seer, revelator" is to try to unite the many different ways we think & understand to the way Father does; that's one of our goals; if we are to do His will, and become "like, in His likeness" we must see, think, feel, do, understand the way He does.
"Be of one mind..." "Be one..." as the Lord became one with Father, in His prayer to Him, He prayed that we would also become one with Them.

There are many aspects of the wars between the Nephites and Lamanites (made up of several different groups, and not only direct descents of Laman at this point); in Helaman 4, part of it, says: (Emphasis added)

Helaman 4
11 Now this great loss of the Nephites, and the great slaughter which was among them[the Nephites], would not have happened had it not been for their wickedness and their bomination which was among them; yea, and it was among those also who professed to belong to the church of God.
12 And it was because of the pride of their hearts, because of their exceeding briches, yea, it was because of their oppression to the cpoor, withholding their food from the hungry, withholding their clothing from the naked, and smiting their humble brethren upon the cheek, making a dmock of that which was sacred, denying the spirit of prophecy and of revelation, murdering, plundering, lying, stealing, committing adultery, rising up in great contentions, and deserting away into the land of Nephi, among the Lamanites—
13 And because of this their great wickedness, and their aboastings in their own strength, they were left in their own strength; therefore they did not prosper, but were afflicted and smitten, and driven before the Lamanites, until they had lost possession of almost all their lands.
14 But behold, Moronihah did apreach many things unto the people because of their iniquity, and also bNephi and Lehi, who were the sons of Helaman, did preach many things unto the people, yea, and did prophesy many things unto them concerning their iniquities, and what should come unto them if they did not repent of their sins. - Prophecy & revelations - trying to get people to see and understand, but they would not think like them, the prophets who thry to lead us to think and have the understanding and mind of Heavenly Father
.... .....
23 And because of their iniquity the church had begun to adwindle; and they began to disbelieve in the spirit of prophecy and in the spirit of revelation; and the judgments of God did stare them in the face.
24 And they saw that they had become aweak, like unto their brethren, the Lamanites, and that the Spirit of the Lord did no more preserve them; yea, it had withdrawn from them because the Spirit of the Lord doth not bdwell in cunholy dtemples—
25 Therefore the Lord did cease to preserve them by his miraculous and matchless power, for they had fallen into a state of aunbelief and awful wickedness; and they saw that the Lamanites were exceedingly more numerous than they, and except they should bcleave unto the Lord their God they must unavoidably perish.
26 For behold, they saw that the strength of the Lamanites was as great as their strength, even man for man. And thus had they fallen into this great transgression; yea, thus had they become aweak, because of their transgression, in the space of bnot many years.

Because of their unbelief in the words of the prophets and revelation.... Because of dissenssions, contentions, deserting away among others who didn't believe .... the cause/consequence are clear.
I often wonder why did He call prophets if we all could interpret and follow our "own understanding" and we all would be right.

To the OP (Sorry I can't remember if it's Fiona or not), I understand that you don't quite understand this principle, but there are several, several scriptural references that support it (I have posted them on another thread and can't remember where. Message me if you're interested; the New Testament is full of references); it will take time to study them and ponder them, and then, Heavenly Father can deepen your understanding of those things; only He can help you "see' these spiritual truths if you want Him to show it to you. Remember, you are an agent unto yourself; no one can impose and make you "see" or "feel' something if you don't allow it.
I think and feel it's wise for you to prayerfully analyze your feelings about feeling very "uncomfortable with this doctrine" and how this person "made you feel." It will reveal things to you about you, and that should be personal, and I beleive that none of us can do it for you.
What a leader says or not, or the way they do it, if we have sustained them, we should be careful with how WE take that. I have mentioned this before in other posts, and someone )I can't recall, sorry) mentioned it again, all things we hear/receive from our leaders should be with/through the Spirit and all things shloud prayerfully pondered;' the instructor,speaker has the obligation to speak/teach/preach by the Holy ghost, and so does the hearer/student/receiver; we have to learn to hear actively and receive things throught the Spirit (I think D&C 50 explains that) Doctrine and Covenants 50 Verses 13-24
Sometimes is not the speaker/teacher/preacher that are not in tune, but the hearers/students/ that are not in tune with the Spirit and receiving it through Him.
Understanding things take time; we should prayerfully study and explore through the Spirit of God, persist upon, and patiently wait for the understanding to come to us that ONLY God can reveal and give.
Our ideas/thoughts/feelings about things are not necessarily Heavenly Father's, unless we have learned to "receive it through the Spirit of Father, know Him, spiritually discern His ways, and come to have His mind."

I feel that if you'll prayerfully study the scriptures that touch this subject, and ask of God, and wait upon Him while you continue to study, ask questions, search, evaluate your own feelings, He will expand that principle to you... and you'll "see...'
Don't block something, the teachings of prophets because of your own feelings/thoughts/understanding about it. Rather, try analyzing, searching, pondering, reading more on the subject, and asking of God Himself to enlighten you and your understanding.
Remember: Prov. 3: 5
5 aTrust in the Lord with all thine bheart; and lean not unto thine cown dunderstanding..
Proverbs 4
7 aWisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get bunderstanding.

Best regards and wishes to you!

[Misshalfway]

Great point! But, to clarify, my understanding of the LDS teaching concerning our Heavenly Father is that he is literally our Father, in the same sense humans parent their children. In other words, we are meant to become all that He is. Ultimately, that would seem to mean that we will become Gods, and that our Heavenly Father will take great joy in the worship we receive as we create our worlds, and eventually become "Heavenly Father" of the Gods we birth.

PC...to clarify a little more.....We believe God is the literal father of our Spirits. He did not father us in the flesh. Only one is the only begotten of the Father.

The second part is where it gets muddy......it is speculation and we talk of it.....but don't include it in our official teachings. The idea that we would be part of the creative process has been talked about and pondered about and published about. The rest of your statement is an assumption some have felt may be truth. The real truth is that beyond the scriptures we really don't literally 'know' yet what this all means.

I hope PC that as you try to understand our doctrine you can distinguish between official doctrine and our speculatory process as we all try to figure out all we can about the eternities. To so many of these questions the real answer is we simply don't know.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

PC...to clarify a little more.....We believe God is the literal father of our Spirits. He did not father us in the flesh. Only one is the only begotten of the Father.

Fair enough. I never did quite buy into the Godmakers' take on your doctrine.

The second part is where it gets muddy......it is speculation and we talk of it.....but don't include it in our official teachings. The idea that we would be part of the creative process has been talked about and pondered about and published about. The rest of your statement is an assumption some have felt may be truth. The real truth is that beyond the scriptures we really don't literally 'know' yet what this all means.

I hope PC that as you try to understand our doctrine you can distinguish between official doctrine and our speculatory process as we all try to figure out all we can about the eternities. To so many of these questions the real answer is we simply don't know.

Thank you for your encouragement. I understand that we are in somewhat speculative territory--especially seeing the diversity of responses from LDS members. As an outsider, with no testimony about these matters, my reading of these posts would lead me to believe that should I embrace the LDS revelations, I would likely side with Traveler, and those who are saying, "Let's embrace our doctrine, and all that it appears to mean."

The reality is that your doctrine concerning pre-mortal eternal existence already lends itself to a very different understanding of the God-humanity relationship. So, while those saying, "I'll never be worshipped, I'll just walk with my Heavenly Father in a glorified godlike state," might make me more comfortable as an evangelical, those who speculate a future of ruling worlds as Gods seem more consistent with other LDS teachings.

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Fair enough. I never did quite buy into the Godmakers' take on your doctrine.



Thank you for your encouragement. I understand that we are in somewhat speculative territory--especially seeing the diversity of responses from LDS members. As an outsider, with no testimony about these matters, my reading of these posts would lead me to believe that should I embrace the LDS revelations, I would likely side with Traveler, and those who are saying, "Let's embrace our doctrine, and all that it appears to mean."

The reality is that your doctrine concerning pre-mortal eternal existence already lends itself to a very different understanding of the God-humanity relationship. So, while those saying, "I'll never be worshipped, I'll just walk with my Heavenly Father in a glorified godlike state," might make me more comfortable as an evangelical, those who speculate a future of ruling worlds as Gods seem more consistent with other LDS teachings.

Consistent......but unconfirmed. I am not even saying that I disagree with the speculation. I am just hoping that we all know when we are crossing into the beyond....if you catch my meaning. (couldn't help myself....my avatar kinda took over there. )

[PapilioMemnon]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

Consistent......but unconfirmed. I am not even saying that I disagree with the speculation. I am just hoping that we all know when we are crossing into the beyond....if you catch my meaning. (couldn't help myself....my avatar kinda took over there. )

Misshalfway, I understand what you're saying; this principle that we speak in not "official" doctrine.
However, it's a principle we believe in, and jsut because is not made "official,' it doesn't mean is not accepted as doctrine.
When porphets speak,... Conference addresses are to be taken as scripture; was that made "official?"
You're clear and right about being really specific that we were taught that we are Heavenly Father's spirit children, and the Jesus Christ is His ONLY Begotten Son in the flesh, and in saying that if we reach Exaltation, the highest degree of glory where Heavenly Father and Christ dwell, we will inherit all and be "joint-heirs with Christ."
No, there's no scripture that says we will be worshiped; at least, I haven't seen it. But there are several scriptural references that we are addressed as "gods," and we were commanded to become LIKE Him, not ABOVE Him, just LIKE Him.
He will ALWAYS be the Almighty, and ABOVE all others. Just a King doesn't stop being a King when he gives the kindgom to a son, and the son becomes LIKE his father, a King as well. Only that, Heavenly Father will ALWAYS be ABOVE any!

We are already co-creaters in many aspects... I understand what you're saying, and that you keep specifically stressing is that we draw logical/intelligent conclusions (and I'd say guided by the Spirit), but we don't know much about it beyond that. And that's right!
There's something I'd like to mention, but I can't adn won't because it pertains to very sacred ordinance; the sealing ordinance says a lot... Try to remember the words...

Thanks for trying to be really specific about it! I appreciate it!

[PapilioMemnon]

Originally Posted by Vanhin

... but it is not taught in the scriptures that we will be worshiped or that we should seek to be worshiped, therefore we should not teach it. ... ...

I don't remember ever hearing any teaching or reading anywhere that we teach that...That's not something we are supposed to seek... And I don't think and believe any of the Prophets ever taught that! But I do believe in what President Snow said and what it leads to as consequence...
Our eyes have to be single to the glory OF God. And if we were ever to reach His presence, and become like Him, by all means, we MUST be humble and humble ourselves to Him!
It's my belief that no one will make to His presence in arrogance, greed, or seeking celestial material possessions or a throne or to be worshiped! That is completely inconsistent with being LIKE Him. Hoever, it's not inconsistent if we examine the relationship between cause/consequence.

Originally Posted by Vanhin

I think scriptures are in harmony with this belief of mine, and I am happy to just keep it at that until (or if) we receive further light and knowledge on the matter.

Sincerely,
Vanhin

I, too, wait for "further knowledge" on this matter... just for knowldege; I'm more concerned with doctrine & knowldege of the things that are required for salvation though...

[MormonMama]

For myself, I seek to follow those doctrinal teachings that will help me to emulate Christ. I feel that if I can do that, I have no need to worry about what will happen in there hereafter. I am content to do my best, not worry about what is only speculation at this point (because, as others have said well, those things are not necessary for our salvation or exaltation), and wait and see what Heavenly Father has in store for me after I'm done on this earth.

I'm pretty sure that if HE chooses to bestow something upon me, I will have no trouble accepting because I will have a much greater understanding at that point than I could possibly have with my puny mortal brain at this point.

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Thank you for your encouragement. I understand that we are in somewhat speculative territory--especially seeing the diversity of responses from LDS members. As an outsider, with no testimony about these matters, my reading of these posts would lead me to believe that should I embrace the LDS revelations, I would likely side with Traveler, and those who are saying, "Let's embrace our doctrine, and all that it appears to mean."

The reality is that your doctrine concerning pre-mortal eternal existence already lends itself to a very different understanding of the God-humanity relationship. So, while those saying, "I'll never be worshipped, I'll just walk with my Heavenly Father in a glorified godlike state," might make me more comfortable as an evangelical, those who speculate a future of ruling worlds as Gods seem more consistent with other LDS teachings.

Our teachings, whatever they may be, are not confined to the handpicked statements of past or present leaders, that we are all so familiar with. The message that is consistently taught by the Church as doctrine, should be easily supported by appealing to the Standard Works. It is folly for any member to believe he/she has a message for others, that has been gained by way of personal revelation, if it moves ahead of the established doctrine of the Church.

That said, it is a fact that we will become gods and goddesses, kings and queens, and priests and priestesses unto the Most High, and we will inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, and inherit the glory of God because of his Son. And it is true that we will have spirit children of our own, which means that they will have the same relationship with us that we have with Heavenly Father. (D&C 132:19, 63)

Those things are consistent with the scriptures and the official doctrines of the Church. But there are specualtions that go contrary the teachings of the remaining scriptures that we have, such as God not being God at some point in his existence, or the atonement of Jesus Christ not being an infinite and eternal sacrificed after all, and that it must be done over and over again for each generation, or that we are to seek to be worshiped in our quest to be like the Father. You know, those things are beyond what has been revealed to us, and in many cases directly contradict the scriptures.

That's why you won't hear the General Authorities of the Church speak that way in conference. They teach the accepted doctrine of the Church. They keep the other stuff in their hearts only, until God sees fit to enlighten us further.

Regards,
Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

Speculations? Do the math...let us take a quick gander at this simple statement that was referred as speculation from the "Teachings of Lorenzo Snow";

As God Is, Man May Be by

Be as great as you want to be. You who have aspirations to be great—and there is no wrong in that—should realize … the support that you should give to those over you, so that when you are placed in responsible positions you may demand of the Lord the faith and support of the people. You will all be great someday, as great as you want to be. I remember an incident which occurred in Kirtland when I received my first patriarchal blessing from Father Smith. A better man never existed, nor was there a man better-loved than he. I was introduced by my sister Eliza R., though at that time I was not a Latter-day Saint and had no idea of becoming one. He said to me: "Don't worry, take it calmly and the Lord will show you, and you will want to be baptized," He told me another thing that greatly surprised me. He said, "You will be great, and as great as you want to be, as great as God Himself, and you will not wish to be greater." I could not understand this, but years after in Nauvoo while talking upon a principle of the gospel, the Spirit of God rested powerfully upon me and showed me more clearly than I can now see your faces a certain principle and its glory, and it came to me summarized in this brief sentence: "As man is now, God once was; as God is now man may be." The Spirit of God was on me in a marvelous manner all that day, and I stored that great truth away in my mind. I felt that I had learnt something that I ought not to communicate to others. (15 June 1901, DN, p. 1.)

"As God now is, man may be." Now, I have told you what Father Smith said to me, that I should become as great as I could want to be, even as great as God Himself. About two years and a half after, in Nauvoo, I asked Elder Sherwood to explain a certain passage of scripture; and while he was endeavoring to give an explanation, the Spirit of God fell upon me to a marked extent, and the Lord revealed to me, just as plainly as the sun at noon-day, this principle, which I put in a couplet: "As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be." That fulfilled Father Smith's declaration. Nothing was ever revealed more distinctly than that was to me. Of course, now that it is so well known it may not appear such a wonderful manifestation; but when I received it, the knowledge was marvelous to me. This principle, in substance, is found also in the scriptures. The Lord said to John, as recorded in the third chapter of his Revelation: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (20 July 1901, JH, p. 4.)

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

It was posted on previous threads and written many times in explaining it. The problem as Joseph Smith reported that other doctrine and principles could not be given to the church during his time due to the Saints immaturity. It is no different today. If anything is out of content, it is the Saint who are quick to judge and slow to research and finding the HG confirmation in prayer. I will remind those individuals here; President Young had two seer stones during his tenure as prophet, seer, and revelator. Even he had problems with the immature Saints who were not ready to receive additional revelations.



Again, do you still feel uncomfortable? As to canonization, I offer up those questions for a reason since we simple don't canonized everything that the HG confirms to the President of the church. Is it really neccessary? No....we simple add it to our daily lives as part of our character as the gosepl.

Another tidbit of information...historical fact that Eve was the oldest living human on this earth. She died after Adam and not before.

Two more added references concerning Adam and Eve being brought here vice created:

Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 5th ed. (Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1893), 55–56.

Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, ed. John A. Widtsoe (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1954), 104–5.

The Creation of Humankind, and Allegory?: A Note on Abraham 5:7, 14–16
Richard D. Draper
Astronomy, Papyrus, and Covenant -- The Creation of Humankind, and Allegory?: A Note on Abraham 5:7, 14–16

I agree with Professor Draper article....but then, we leave this in the Spirit hands regards to the Truths. Again, this is not for everyone.