Uncomfortable Doctrine

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Moksha

So if a limb exists it should be climbed out on, even if 'we don't know much' about whether it is safe?

Climb out slowly.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

Seeking the goodness of God.........you are going to have to show me where in official church doctrine the pursuit of being worshipped is listed.

Becoming like God......and becoming God himself are two different ideas. The scriptures use the term "gods" with a little g. It seems to me there is a great disparity in our human ability to comprehend what this means. It hasn't been revealed completely and isn't taught as doctrine. It lies in the realms of intelligent speculation. You yourself, traveler, make some assumptions that seem to feel right to you. But they are not church doctrine and shouldn't be presented as such. That is my only point.

(see John 10:33)


I do not understand why you believe being worshiped is evil and undesirable. If you do not want to seek after something; that is fine with me but you have provided no reason at all for your objection. You have said that you know of no commandment to seek the things of G-d. Paul said to him that knoweth to do good and do it not to him it is sin.

I see two possibilities – one: you do not believe that it is good for G-d to be worshiped. (from his point of view)
Or two: You have a different understanding of worship than what I understand.

I understand worship to be recognition of G-d for his love, mercy and justice and all his acts of love, mercy and justice as well as respect for the covenants I have with him and his position (as king of heaven) in providing the covenant to the citizens of heaven. As a priesthood holder I am commanded to stand as proxy for G-d in the offering of covenants. This I consider my roll as proxy as part of my worship of him.

There is honor and respect for offices of the priesthood that I understand I must accept; not because of who I am as much as it is the title and office to which I have been called and appointed. You may see worship in the eternities as something of privilege and means to be “better” and “greater” than others. I see any such thing as a calling of responsibility and service. He who is greatest is the “servant” of all.

In general it is my impression that few understand or desire to understand the great responsibility in the covenant that G-d holds. I honor him – I love him and in every way I seek to be like him – no exceptions. I also love him such that I sorrow that anyone should think evil or bad of anything associated with G-d and his desire to share all with those that covenant with him. But if you do not want to be a part of something of G-d – I will not force it upon you nor will I take anything unto myself. I will not limit what G-d can do or his ability to pass on to who he will; anything or any honor.

I have not said that it must be but I will not say that it cannot be or should not be. If G-d does or does not command the worship of all g-ds or G-ds of heaven I will accept whatever he commands – without exception.
The Traveler

[fiona84]

Okay....some one PMed me the following information. It has added to my confusion and I have no rebuttal for it, nor an explaination....but of course i feel offended because I AM LDS at the end of the day and I WANT badly to be able to feel good about defending this doctrine, but honestly, I just can't right now. And this isn't helping:

"You are right, "mean" mormons are on the endangered species list! And I do not believe all mormons are going to hell, some really do understand the grace of God and the fruit shows it, I've met them. I beleive the "Church of the Lamb" and the "Church of Satan" exist in just about all churches, side by side. But nonethelesss, I would warn you that there are many harmful lies in LDS doctrine.


Before I go into the Isaiah verses I want to make it clear (and you probably already know) that the LDS Church teaches a totally different Jesus than we do (not to mention a different Gospel and Salvation which is the pursuit of Godhood). According to Joseph Smith, Jesus is only following the footsteps of his father as he followed his own father before him and so on. The LDS Jesus (and God for that matter) is "progressive" in nature and the difference between "human" and "divine" is only a matter of degrees. The LDS Jesus (and God) is part of a cycle. Also, the LDS Jesus is not exactly born of a virgin if the Heavenly Father is of flesh and blood, whether he's immortal or not.


But the Jesus I know is actually God in the Flesh, and the Gospel I know is about the pursuit of God for us, and of us for Him in return. The term in hebrew "Son of" is a means of classification. So when Jesus said that he is the Son of Man, it means that he represents all mankind before God and that he is by nature human. He is also the Son of God, which means that he represents God to us and is by nature God. The peacemkers are called sons of God because they emulate God's nature. The pharisees are called sons of the devil, or sons of perdition because they emulate the devil's nature.

So it comes down to this: which Jesus saved us? The Jesus who is a god, or the Jesus who is God? I believe in the latter, because he accepted worship from people during his earthly ministry which would be blasephemous if he were not indeed the One True God. I'll leave it there.


This list is going to be long (ok, overkill actually), but here' the Isaiah verses I had in mind (two common LDS objections to the verses I'm about to show you are 1- that God is only talking about earthly idols, and 2- that God is really saying that He is the only God on earth for us, not necesarrily the only God period. I'll think you'll find that neither hold much water):

12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, And marked off the heavens by the span , And calculated the dust of the earth by the measure, And weighed the mountains in a balance And the hills in a pair of scales?
Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him?
With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding?


Isaiah 40:12-14 (NAS...If what Joseph Smith taught (that God was once a man who then worked his way to the station of a god) is true then God would have had to learn all this. But the Bible says God never needed any instruction.




18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with Him?


Isaiah 40:18 (NAS

25 "To whom then will you liken Me That I would be his equal?" says the Holy One.


Isaiah 40:25 (NAS

28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.


Isaiah 40:28 (NAS...Joseph Smith taught that the spirit of man is "co-equal/co-eternal" with God, i.e. uncreated by God. And Brigham Young taught that there are infinite worlds with an infinite number of gods, which opens the likelihood that there are other Gods out there who are on the same level of our God. But here God says that He is Eternal and that there are none like Him. Joseph Smith also blatantly said that God was not eternally God, contradicting this verse and Psalm 90:2.





10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.


Isaiah 43:10-11

6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation . And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.
'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' "

Isaiah 44:6-8

5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,


Isaiah 45:5-6 (NAS

18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else.


Isaiah 45:18 (NAS

21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.


Isaiah 45:21-22 (NAS

9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,


Isaiah 46:9 (NAS"

Are the things he said about Joseph Smith correct? What does our church teach regarding these NT verses?

Rest assured, I will not be swayed into thinking the LDS church is 'lies' just because of some random PM but I will not deny it leaves me squirming, much like that talk I heard on Sunday that I just wish I would have stayed home and not heard!!

Hemi, Vahn, Bytor, and others

Thank you all very sincerly for taking the time and trying to explain this to me
I really appreciate it

Although it still is very confusing and honestly seems that there is contradicting beliefs from members on this thread, It is indeed very interesting.

To be fair ( shed an even light ) I will be the first to tell you that there is some contradiction in my Catholic faith regarding some doctrine as well ( although it seems that it is not over such huge claims, that could possibly be my bias chiming in )

Thanks again for ALL the generous efforts.

God bless,
Carl

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by Traveler

(see John 10:33)


I do not understand why you believe being worshiped is evil and undesirable. If you do not want to seek after something; that is fine with me but you have provided no reason at all for your objection. You have said that you know of no commandment to seek the things of G-d. Paul said to him that knoweth to do good and do it not to him it is sin.

I see two possibilities – one: you do not believe that it is good for G-d to be worshiped. (from his point of view)
Or two: You have a different understanding of worship than what I understand.

I understand worship to be recognition of G-d for his love, mercy and justice and all his acts of love, mercy and justice as well as respect for the covenants I have with him and his position (as king of heaven) in providing the covenant to the citizens of heaven. As a priesthood holder I am commanded to stand as proxy for G-d in the offering of covenants. This I consider my roll as proxy as part of my worship of him.

There is honor and respect for offices of the priesthood that I understand I must accept; not because of who I am as much as it is the title and office to which I have been called and appointed. You may see worship in the eternities as something of privilege and means to be “better” and “greater” than others. I see any such thing as a calling of responsibility and service. He who is greatest is the “servant” of all.

In general it is my impression that few understand or desire to understand the great responsibility in the covenant that G-d holds. I honor him – I love him and in every way I seek to be like him – no exceptions. I also love him such that I sorrow that anyone should think evil or bad of anything associated with G-d and his desire to share all with those that covenant with him. But if you do not want to be a part of something of G-d – I will not force it upon you nor will I take anything unto myself. I will not limit what G-d can do or his ability to pass on to who he will; anything or any honor.

I have not said that it must be but I will not say that it cannot be or should not be. If G-d does or does not command the worship of all g-ds or G-ds of heaven I will accept whatever he commands – without exception.
The Traveler

I don't think you are understanding me. I don't think I ever said being worshipped was evil or undesirable. I just believe that the idea that we may be worshipped in the hereafter is speculation. I think I have explained myself so much I perhaps may turn blue at any moment.

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

I don't think you are understanding me. I don't think I ever said being worshipped was evil or undesirable. I just believe that the idea that we may be worshipped in the hereafter is speculation. I think I have explained myself so much I perhaps may turn blue at any moment.

Hey Misshalfway,

That would be SOOOOOO cool, " A BLUE MISSHALFWAY " NOW THAT WOULD BE A GREAT ADDITION TO THIS FORUM.

[Misshalfway]

Fiona,

I am sorry someone is stooping to pm you. Don't look at such confusion as a starting place for understanding these concepts, Okay?

Look....start at the basics of this idea and move up. Start with the applicable sections in the D&C. Look at some of the links that Hemi listed above from the ensign.

We believe in eternal progression. I think Tom's offer is a great one. TomK has his feel squarely on the ground. You can read enough about this to get a clear understanding. Just know that there is lots of speculation woven in here. We don't know anything about any other God. Our Heavenly Father is it!!! We believe that he is everything the NT and OT and Bofm says he is. We don't know his history. He hasn't revealed that. We don't believe that God is learning either. There are just lots of ideas here floating around. Lots of people/leaders trying to piece together questions and answers and inspiration.

Follow the Spirit as you wade thru it and know that these concepts are not crucial to salvation.

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by fiona84

Okay....some one PMed me the following information. It has added to my confusion and I have no rebuttal for it, nor an explaination....but of course i feel offended because I AM LDS at the end of the day and I WANT badly to be able to feel good about defending this doctrine, but honestly, I just can't right now. And this isn't helping:

"You are right, "mean" mormons are on the endangered species list! And I do not believe all mormons are going to hell, some really do understand the grace of God and the fruit shows it, I've met them. I beleive the "Church of the Lamb" and the "Church of Satan" exist in just about all churches, side by side. But nonethelesss, I would warn you that there are many harmful lies in LDS doctrine.


Before I go into the Isaiah verses I want to make it clear (and you probably already know) that the LDS Church teaches a totally different Jesus than we do (not to mention a different Gospel and Salvation which is the pursuit of Godhood). According to Joseph Smith, Jesus is only following the footsteps of his father as he followed his own father before him and so on. The LDS Jesus (and God for that matter) is "progressive" in nature and the difference between "human" and "divine" is only a matter of degrees. The LDS Jesus (and God) is part of a cycle. Also, the LDS Jesus is not exactly born of a virgin if the Heavenly Father is of flesh and blood, whether he's immortal or not.


But the Jesus I know is actually God in the Flesh, and the Gospel I know is about the pursuit of God for us, and of us for Him in return. The term in hebrew "Son of" is a means of classification. So when Jesus said that he is the Son of Man, it means that he represents all mankind before God and that he is by nature human. He is also the Son of God, which means that he represents God to us and is by nature God. The peacemkers are called sons of God because they emulate God's nature. The pharisees are called sons of the devil, or sons of perdition because they emulate the devil's nature.

So it comes down to this: which Jesus saved us? The Jesus who is a god, or the Jesus who is God? I believe in the latter, because he accepted worship from people during his earthly ministry which would be blasephemous if he were not indeed the One True God. I'll leave it there.


This list is going to be long (ok, overkill actually), but here' the Isaiah verses I had in mind (two common LDS objections to the verses I'm about to show you are 1- that God is only talking about earthly idols, and 2- that God is really saying that He is the only God on earth for us, not necesarrily the only God period. I'll think you'll find that neither hold much water):

12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, And marked off the heavens by the span , And calculated the dust of the earth by the measure, And weighed the mountains in a balance And the hills in a pair of scales?
Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him?
With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding?


Isaiah 40:12-14 (NAS...If what Joseph Smith taught (that God was once a man who then worked his way to the station of a god) is true then God would have had to learn all this. But the Bible says God never needed any instruction.




18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with Him?


Isaiah 40:18 (NAS

25 "To whom then will you liken Me That I would be his equal?" says the Holy One.


Isaiah 40:25 (NAS

28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.


Isaiah 40:28 (NAS...Joseph Smith taught that the spirit of man is "co-equal/co-eternal" with God, i.e. uncreated by God. And Brigham Young taught that there are infinite worlds with an infinite number of gods, which opens the likelihood that there are other Gods out there who are on the same level of our God. But here God says that He is Eternal and that there are none like Him. Joseph Smith also blatantly said that God was not eternally God, contradicting this verse and Psalm 90:2.





10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.


Isaiah 43:10-11

6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation . And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.
'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' "

Isaiah 44:6-8

5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,


Isaiah 45:5-6 (NAS

18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else.


Isaiah 45:18 (NAS

21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.


Isaiah 45:21-22 (NAS

9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,


Isaiah 46:9 (NAS"

Are the things he said about Joseph Smith correct? What does our church teach regarding these NT verses?

Rest assured, I will not be swayed into thinking the LDS church is 'lies' just because of some random PM but I will not deny it leaves me squirming, much like that talk I heard on Sunday that I just wish I would have stayed home and not heard!!

Fiona: Posting derogatory remarks about the church is against the rules anywhere on this board, including via PM's. Please report the poster to us.

Seraphim

[pam]

I've got it Seraphim. I figured out who it is.

[Still_Small_Voice]

My understanding of the doctrine of exaltation is what Joseph Smith taught:

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

When Joseph Smith says "a great while", I think of a billion years or longer. Maybe if I am judged of God to enter His Kingdom, I will get to the perfection level in two billion years. God will always be higher than us if we ever receive our exaltation. He can bestow any power or glory upon us that He desires to give. But our Father will always be our God no matter what power and glory He gives us. Anything He gives to us will always be His and we will always be His children.