The Nation of Deseret

[deseretgov]

In the thread about the White Horse Prophecy Justamere10 asked me some questions. Instead of going off topic on tha thread I will answer the questions here. I guess if anyone else has questions you can ask them here too.

Originally Posted by Justamere10

Your login id and sig line denote that you are affiliated with something called I think "The Nation of Deseret".

I'm curious about your website and entity but am very far from convinced that you are going to go anywhere with it or that has or ever will have any legitimacy.

Well it will only have as much legitimacy as people want. If people want to enjoy the benefits of living as part of this government then they are welcome to join. We hope that this government will become a place of safety and refuge as the rest of the world descends into turmoil.

Your intentions may be honorable but is it your opinion that ordinary people such as yourself with no direct connection to LDS General Authorities (if that is your status) are going to be the ones to set up a Council of Fifty and a government that will endure throughout the Millennium?

To start off I didn't set up the Council of Fifty. But I do understand what you mean. I'm also unsure if this government will last throughout the Millennium. I feel that whatever God wants to happen will happen. If God wants this government to last through the Millenium then that will happen. If God wants this government to be an active force until the Millenium and then it will be turned over to other leaders ten that will happen. If God doesn't want this government to make any progress, then it wont. I'm not in a position to state what God want's for this government.

About the LDS General Authorities, it should be remembered that the political Kingdom of God is not a branch of the LDS church. The political Kingdom of God and the Church do not have authority over each other. The political Kingdom can't tell the Church what to do. For example, the political Kingdom can't tell the Church that it has to use sprinkling instead of immersion for baptism. Some of the early brethren did not understand this and after the death of Joseph Smith they wanted the leaders:

"to call together the Council of Fifty and organize the church. They were told that the Council of Fifty was not a church organization, but was composed of members irrespective of their religious faith, ... and that the organization of the church belonged to the priesthood alone."
(HC 7;213)

But in the same respect the political Kingdom in not under the Church. The Church does not have the responsibility of stopping one person from infringing on the rights of another. That is the responsibility of the the political kingdom. So the political Kingdom of God doesn't need a connection to the LDS General Authorities.

Why would you think that now is the time for such a government to be organized, and that you are the one who should be organizing it?

Personally I think now is a perfect time to organize this government. There is so much turmoil and improper government control that we need a government like this.

As far as why they should be the ones to organize it? You'll have to ask the Council of Fifty about that one.

What or who motivated you to build that website?

I was recruited by the Council of Fifty to build the website. I hope you like it, if not the content then at least the design.

Just curious, I don't mean to be offensive, I just discovered your website today.

No offense taken. I'm always happy to answer questions. I hope I did answer your questions.

[MrNirom]

Here is what I have dug up:

Joseph created a governing body which he called "The Council of Fifty" similar to King Arthur's, just before his death, but was killed before he could harmonize it. After his death, the Church could see little use or purpose in this Council and dropped it.

Joseph set up the Church in 1830 and later the Council of Fifty or the actual governing kingdom in 1843? Did the Lord not promise the saints that if they were faithful, "they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world (the beast) are subdued under my feet." (D&C 103:7) When else in history had the beast received such a deadly blow?

Few realize that the Church was merely a forerunner of the Kingdom and not the Kingdom itself. Long after the Church was organized Joseph often spoke of setting up the Kingdom spoken of by Daniel as a thing of the future. Few realize that the Church is merely an auxiliary of the Kingdom and a mere temporary organization as indicated by the scriptures: "For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this Church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old." (D&C 22:3) Has anyone ever stopped to think of what he would have established if our works were not dead??? It would have been the kingdom.

What is the kingdom? Daniel uses the Hebrew word Malkuw which literally means "dominion". In other words, when the Kingdom is set up, the saints will be given an actual dominion on the earth. The dominion will have a very small start, but will eventually fill the earth. Joseph Smith tried to establish this dominion with a faithful few near the end of his life by organizing the Council of Fifty. Many in the Church are not familiar with this organization, yet it did exist and its existence is fully documented by recognized LDS scholars and since there are numerous good books on the subject, I will not belabor the point by trying to substantiate that it existed.

Joseph Smith had to keep the organization of the Council of Fifty secret because he knew that the knowledge of it would excite the worst fears of his persecutors. Everyone attending was to keep the knowledge to himself, and the minutes to the meetings were even burned. At this point darkness raged more than ever and managed to obtain the life of the prophet before he was able to establish an actual dominion. However, Brigham Young tried to continue this organization and attempted to organize the state of "Deseret" as a dominion, but was unsuccessful. Thus the Kingdom yet awaits to be born.

To those who doubt this we need ask: Where do we now have dominion? We do not even have dominion over our own city of Salt Lake, but the day is prophesied, "And judgment was given to the Saints of the most high and the time came that the Saints possessed the kingdom." (Dan 7:22)

[a-train]

There is something that bothers me about the view that there was some window of opportunity wherein the saints in Joseph Smith's time could have accomplished much more than they did, but they failed and thus this opportunity was lost. The notion is as if we are simply not responsible and we are now just waiting for another such window to open up.

I think we can open these windows up ourselves. We need to be building Zion now, not waiting for some new miracle to drop out of the sky to begin.

There is nothing stopping us from getting together and helping one another, from being of one heart and one mind, from seeing to it that there are no poor among us, from building up a socio-economic entity which frees us from the socio-economic bondage of the world.

We can do all of this right here and right now. We don't need to walk shoelessly behind a handcart to Jackson County Missouri as the moon falls from the sky and the sun turns to blood in order to accomplish it.

-a-train

[deseretgov]

That's agreat post a-train. I think too often we wait for us to be told what to do. I think this scripture is fitting:

D&C 58:26-29
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.


MrNirom what are your references for those quotes?

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

I have thought about this for the past several days. I have never heard of the council of fifty, nor a separate political group that was attempting to establish a "kingdom of God".

However, I have studied the Old and New Testament. I have studied First Century Christianity and Judaism. I have studied history. And, the one thing I have kept coming back to is the question - What is the Kingdom of God? From what I have read on the website you have up, the Kingdom of God is a governing body of citizens of various religious affiliations and beliefs. A political kingdom to offer refuge from other failed governments. It is from this basis that, from your claims and statements, the kingdom of God is of a political nature that men ought to implement at some point.

I disagree with this. Simply because Scripture has already defined what the Kingdom of God is. And that definition is not a governing body of fifty men in a council. It is not a political form of government.

To understand this, we go to the preaching of John the Baptist.

In those days, came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. {Matthew 3:1-2, KJV LDS Edition}

Jesus Christ himself began his ministry - according to Matthew 4:17 - with the same statement John the Baptist made: From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

In the Lord's Prayer, Matthew 6:10, Christ says this: Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. {see also Luke 11:2} What is even more interesting is what Christ is recorded to have said the following:

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added tunto you. (Matthew 6:33, KJV LDS Edition}

When we read in the New Testament, Christ refers to the Kingdom of Heaven and/or Kingdom of God as being imminent.

Now, if we step back a little bit. The First Century Jews believed that the promised messiah would be a deliverer like that of Moses who came in and delivered the children of Israel from an oppressive nation. Their understanding of redemption would be a man who would come in and throw off the chains of the Roman Empire and bring Israel back into their land and restore the Davidic Kingdom their forefathers had once enjoyed. They were seeking after a political kingdom of God. Yet, Christ was not their messiah because he did not come to overthrow the chains of the Roman Empire, but he came to overthrow the chains of sin and death that hold people in bondage.

Thus, the Kingdom of God, according to Scripture and history, is not a political form of government but the Gospel itself. Those who are citizens are those who have a testimony of the truthfulness of this gospel. The Kingdom of God is already here on earth, just as much as it is in Heaven.

Thus, why I disagree with this, why I find this all so troubling. The Kingdom of God is not political but it is His Gospel truths, His gospel Principles, it is the Plan of Salvation for mankind and those who hold to the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are already citizens of this great kingdom.

[deseretgov]

SeattleTruthSeeker it's clear you have a good understanding of the gospel and the scriptures. I understand your statement about the Kingdom of God. What you say it true the Kingdom of God does refer to the church. If we look at the writings of early church leaders(more specifically Joseph Smith) it we can see that the phrase "Kingdom of God" is used to describe the Church, God's Kingdom in the eternities, as well as some other meanings. In some cases it is also used to describe the political Kingdom of God.

The truth is Joseph Smith did indeed establich the Council of Fifty in 1844. The Official name of this government as revealed to Joseph Smith is: "The Kingdom of God and His Laws, with the Keys and power thereof, and judgment in the hands of his servants, Ahman Christ." The more official name of the Council was the Kingdom of God. However it was usually refered to as the Council of Fifty.

But the establishment of this Kingdom of God was in no way intended to replace or take authority in the religious Kingdom of God. There is a distinct seperation between the two Kingdoms. They both fulfill different roles. The religious Kingdom of God(and probably the more important) takes care of the salvation need of the people. The political Kingdom of God takes care of the legal needs of the people.

So I would agree with you that scripturally the phrase "Kingdom of God" refers to the religious organization. That would be the most common usage. However according to Joseph Smith and many other early church leaders the phrase "Kingdom of God" also means a political organization. An organization seperate from the church organization.

I usually make the distinction by saying "political Kingdom of God." But this concept is difficult to understand for most people. I know that when I first heard about it it took alot of study before I finally understood it.

I'm glad you took the time to go out and research it. And I agree with what you've said. I get the feeling, though, from your post that you feel a group claiming there is a political Kingdom of God would undermine the religious Kingdom of God. The political Kingdom of God is not a way into Heaven. The politcial Kingdom of God offers no means of salvation. The political Kingdom of God offers a form of government that is based on and upholds righteous principles. It's laws are based on God's will, not on the will of unrighteous politicians.

Hopefully some of my ramblings have helped out. Here's a good reference that should help you out in your studies: "It Seems Like Heaven Began on Earth"

[Elgama]

I have a few questions I have read your website and I am very unnerved - the Council of Fifty held its last recorded meeting in 1884.

1) Does this have the support of our church leaders?
2) Shouldn't the First Presidency be the ones to even start intiating something like this?
3) Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? or a splinter group?

I am sorry but this makes me very uneasy it seems to be something that only the President of the Church should spearhead. The only other group to resurrect it in the past is a polygamist state.

-Charley

[deseretgov]

Originally Posted by Elgama

I have a few questions I have read your website and I am very unnerved - the Council of Fifty held its last recorded meeting in 1884.

1) Does this have the support of our church leaders?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has currently made no comment concerning the Nation of Deseret.

2) Shouldn't the First Presidency be the ones to even start intiating something like this?

The original Council of Fifty was started by Joseph Smith. The restored Gospel was necessary to establish the foundation of the political Kingdom of God. It is also clear from statements made by many Council members, including Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young, that the Council of Fifty(political Kingdom of God) is not a church organization. The Church has no authority over the political Kingdom. On that same not the political Kingdom for God had no authority in the Church. The Council of Fifty was meant to have members not only from the CJCLDS, but from many other religions. If I may reference a quote from earlier(emphasis added):

"They were told that the Council of Fifty was not a church organization, but was composed of members irrespective of their religious faith, ... and that the organization of the church belonged to the priesthood alone."
(HC 7;213)

The consent of the CJCLDS is not required for the functioning of the political Kingdom of God, because they are their own separate organizations. One covers political and legal matters, the other covers matters of salvation. Having said that(and I didn't mean to make it sound like the Church is unimportant), I think that since God is the primary author and leader of both organizations, they would naturally move in the same direction.

3) Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? or a splinter group?

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

I am sorry but this makes me very uneasy it seems to be something that only the President of the Church should spearhead. The only other group to resurrect it in the past is a polygamist state.

-Charley

I certainly understand your concerns. But bear in mind that the President of the Church is just that, the President of the Church. He has all authority relating to the operation of the Church and the spiritual welfare of the Earth. But he doesn't have the civil(political) authority to do things such as: arrest people, pass civil laws, etc.

Of course if it's God's will that the President of the Church would lead this movement then it will happen. If it's God's will that the leaders we currently have will lead us then that will happen. Whatever is God's will is what will come to pass. Maybe the purpose of our movement is not to be the Millennial government only to prepare the way for the actual Millennial government. I'm not sure what the future will hold, but what I do know is that God's will is what will come to pass.

I've heard of a smiliar group called something like the Nations of Israel or something. I've been unable to find any references on it.

[MrNirom]

We really need a new Govt!

I came across 19 videos that play one after the other automatically that will open eyes to OUR Govt. Don't make any decision until you have veiwed all 19. Keep an open mind.. look at what you see.. and then decide. Maybe you could even apply Moroni's challange here.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask• God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true•; and if ye shall ask with a sincere• heart, with real• intent, having faith• in Christ, he will manifest• the truth• of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know• the truth• of all things.

Not all things spiritual.. but.. ALL Things!

************************************** YouTube - 9/11 Coincidences (Part One)*******************

[Justice]

Revelation 12:
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

There is no need for a separate organization for political means. Every one knows the woman spoken of here is the Church of God. It plays off the analogy of Christ being the Bridegroom. Many people think this man child is Christ. But, Christ was not born of the Church, nor can someone give birth to themselves, since Christ is also one of the parents of this man-child. This man child is the Kingdom of God, which is the government that will rule all nations with the Word of God (iron rod).

This change will come instantly when Christ come again. This government body, if you will, is already set up all over the world, right down to the local level. Think of your Bishop as a Mayor and your Stake PResident as a Governor. All Christ has to do is flip the switch when He comes and POW, insta-governement.