Do you really concur with these statements?

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Agency.......yes we will all be held accountable for our own choices. But the Bishop is an ecclesiastical leader......and is accountable for his decisions.

"if I follow my Bishops council in some spiritual matter and he was wrong....it will be the Bishop who is held accountable by the Lord and not me"

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

"if I follow my Bishops council in some spiritual matter and he was wrong....it will be the Bishop who is held accountable by the Lord and not me"

Not accountable for my sin mind you, just accountable for the council he gave.

[a-train]

Concur.

-a-train

[Heavenguard]

Bytor, he's not arguing that the Bishop would (or not) be accountable for the wrong counsel, but whether or not you are accountable for the action you took after his counsel.

SeattleTruthSeeker, your example necessitates that your boss definitively knows better than you do, and his way is the absolute most efficient (and therefore, for this purpose, the right) way. I can give examples where I know better than the President of where I work, believe you me. (*Sigh* Some of the requests I get in ... oy.)

What KristofferUmfrey is asking is whether or not we believe that the church leaders (I note he didn't say Prophet) definitively know better, and their ways are absolutely the right way(s).

[bytor2112]

[QUOTE=Heavenguard;288585]Bytor, he's not arguing that the Bishop would (or not) be accountable for the wrong counsel, but whether or not you are accountable for the action you took after his counsel.

If I act on my ecclesiastical leaders council....I will be blessed....unless of course the council is to rob the convenience store.

[bytor2112]

Abortion has been a hot thread lately....so perhaps this would be a good analogy. Let' say, that I am a woman and I go to my Bishop and tell him that I want an abortion because I am afraid that I might not survive the birth and he says ok...you should do that....so you have the abortion and it turns out that he was wrong....he should have asked you to see another physician or whatever or perhaps referred you to the Stake President. You will not be accountable for acting on your Bishop's council........make sense?

[japacific]

When the bishop gives you bad advice, does it mean God was wrong?

[Kirajo]

It does sound really extreme, but I think to the people that have a strong enough testimony/faith in their leader and prophet, it makes complete sense, and maybe to those that are still struggling with their testimony is sounds foolish.

[rampion]

It seems that we are more independent thinkers now than members were expected to be back in 1945. And I think that is both good and bad in some ways. On the one hand, we have become more proud and stiff-necked and individualistic. People expect a lot out of life, and too many of us sacrifice important things for the sake of getting things that we want, leisure activities, careers, etc. It is a problem when we put ourselves first and live beyond our means, fail to help our neighbors, sacrifice family, etc. I'm probably as guilty as anyone. But there can also be too much dependence on someone else to tell us everything. Maybe sometimes we ask for more council from our leaders than is their responsibility to give. The Lord said that it is not meet that we should be commanded in all things. God expects us to think for ourselves, even when we go to Him. We should figure out some solutions and pray to know whether it is right. The sheep metaphor has its place, but can be taken too far. Sheep are better off when they trust and follow the shepherd, but if we act like sheep all the time and don't do our own thinking, we will get into trouble.

In our time, God doesn't generally tell us which career to choose, who to marry, where to go on vacation, what to have for lunch (the details, anyway), etc. I wonder if it might have been different in earlier years. In pioneer times, people were apparently given callings to go and settle particular places. One of my ancestors immigrated from Scandinavia, and was sent to Gunnison to be a farmer. He unfortunately wasn't good at farming and never did well at it, and we have too many stories in that line about people who died in farming accidents. It was recorded that these good pioneers never murmured or complained. I'm not so sure that I buy all of that, or maybe if they just went along with it, perhaps it would have been better for this ancestor if he had spoken up and said that he was not a farmer, but a taylor, and needed to find work that he was suited for. My family tends to be overly passive, and it does not serve us well.

I think that it would have been better for me if I had been taught growing up that I was responsible for my life and my choices, rather than that I would live the life that my parents expected that I would, no questions asked. Church leaders are sometimes like parents. They want what is best for us, and they do their best, but sometimes they may be prone to overstepping their boundaries, and when they do, we need to have boundaries and be responsible for ourselves and our decisions.

[tubaloth]

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)"

I would concur for the most part.

"Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, exhorted the Mormon people to "... learn to do as you are told, ... if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."

This one would be a little bit on the edge (for me)

When I was LDS, I believed that we would stand at the judgment bar alone.

Yes and part of that judgment well be how we followed the commandments of our leaders.

Accepting counsel is one thing. Assuming that one need not reflect on statements because the thinking has been done is quite another.

And I think this is part of the miss understanding that is kind of coming into this thread.

The reason we (LDS members) would trust/follow a prophet so faithfully is because we have already made that judgment up that this person is a prophet of God. That we have gotten that witness that this mortal man, has a calling of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator.

This is the obligation of the members of the church. I feel if they DON’T do this and are following the prophet, then that is the wrong path. The point being, is when one follows the prophet it isn’t because of the calling or title, its because I know by the spirit, that this person is lead and guided by God.

What happened to agency? You are responsible for the choices you make, no one else.

You are, you use your agency to study it out in your mind and in your heart. You use your agency to get on your knees and pray about it. To seek the Lord in guidance. You use your agency based off the decision that you have come to know that this prophet is called of God. You use your agency to follow that council that came from one that is called of God. Agency is very much part of the process.

Under this logic Hitler (if he had lived) is the only one that should have been convicted at Nuremburg, because they were just doing what their leader told them.

Like I pointed out, this is not a good comparison. Those following Hitler did not have a choice to find out for themselves if he was the “chosen” leader. Hitler rose to that position and people were forced to follow that.

For a prophet, each member is to gain there own testimony that the prophet is called of God. Each member individually sustains that prophet on there own. If one feels that a prophet is not called of God, they can do what they well. They are not forced in any way.