Do you really concur with these statements?

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

"Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, exhorted the Mormon people to "... learn to do as you are told, ... if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."

There are a number of quotes on record by various Church leaders telling us not to be dumb sheep and follow blindly. I doubt many of us would strap a bomb on our backs and venture into a crowded place even if our Stake President told us to do so.

[OtterPop]

Originally Posted by Moksha

There are a number of quotes on record by various Church leaders telling us not to be dumb sheep and follow blindly. I doubt many of us would strap a bomb on our backs and venture into a crowded place even if our Stake President told us to do so.

But what if the prophet told you to? Couldn't happen? Don't forget that part of the endowment used to be to swear vengeance on the U.S.

[pam]

I concur with the comments in the OP.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Because doing what the bishop told you and killing 6 million Jews really amounts to the same thing...

Jeesh....reminds me of work.

Lady comes in, orders food. I tell her price, she gets mad. I tell her that I don't control the prices, and she says, "Oh I see, you're just like those Germans who went along with Hitler because they were following orders."

Me: (Normally I can keep cool with most customers) Yah...because charging 8 dollars for a meal is exactly like....(you get the picture)

Honestly, what are people here expecting the church leadership to ask of us?

Commands from the bishop:

Do your home teaching
Love your wife
Strenghthen your family relationship
Do temple work
Be a good neighbour
Study the scriptures and live them

Honestly...do I really need to question any of these? The cases in which really weird and innappropriate things are asked by church leadership are rarities and only pointed because they are such.

[AnthonyB]

So if the prophet tells you that he is reinstituting polygamy and that God has called him to wed your wife and you should be best man at the wedding. You'd happily get divorced and turn up and be best man at the wedding? (see Orson Pratt/Sarah Pratt history, I am not picking sides just saying that might have been a possibility.)

Could a prophet or bishop tell you to do something you know to be wrong and do you expect God to absolve you simply because you were told to do it?

I know that Abraham went to sacrifice Isaac but that was a direct command from God, he had a personal conviction/testimony. But doing something that I felt convicted was wrong because a Pastor/Priest/Prophet told me is not something I could comprehend.

[hordak]

"We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were to do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves." Joseph Smith in the "Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Originally Posted by Heavenguard

Bytor, he's not arguing that the Bishop would (or not) be accountable for the wrong counsel, but whether or not you are accountable for the action you took after his counsel.

SeattleTruthSeeker, your example necessitates that your boss definitively knows better than you do, and his way is the absolute most efficient (and therefore, for this purpose, the right) way. I can give examples where I know better than the President of where I work, believe you me. (*Sigh* Some of the requests I get in ... oy.)

What KristofferUmfrey is asking is whether or not we believe that the church leaders (I note he didn't say Prophet) definitively know better, and their ways are absolutely the right way(s).

I do believe in personal accountability.

Recently, my fiance and I have met with the Bishop to discuss our situation. We are living together and have lived together most of our relationship. This is mainly due to the fact that I had lost my job and was evicted out of my apartment because I could not find a job. Is the living arrangements wrong for us? Yes. Has the Bishop made this clear to the both of us? Yes. Does he think we should keep our relationship going and one of us separate from the apartment? No. Why is that? Because, (and not to justify why we are living together) we are already operating as a "family" unit. In that, she has a son and we have taken in her two younger niece and nephew because of the state taking them away from the mother. I work full time, she works full time. We are busy any given moment of any given day. Our finances are pooled into one account and the bills are payed. We discuss major financial situations, share in the responsibilities of caring for the children and providing for them. Did he challenge us and set a date of when two things should happen? Yes, and we are proactive about getting those two things accomplished. Marriage will happen on January 3 and we both are starting to figure a way to attend church.

We do have good home teaches and she has good visiting teachers who come on a regular basis and speak with us.

Now, with that said, I understand that different circumstances have different outcomes. The only thing is to take what is being said and discussed (unless it is obvious and blatantly wrong) to prayer and seek out Heavenly Fathers will. Most of the time, the direction and council should be adhered too.

And, to be honest, I have not read, nor heard of any council coming from the General Authorities that did not have some weight to it. We all are now starting to see the reason why the council for providential living must be adhered too. The council to "live within our means" and have some back up resources in case something were to happen. People who don't listen to such council will wake up one day and find themselves in a very bad situation and may not be able to receive the help they need.

Living a simple life (from this years General Conference) is based on four basic essential needs - food, clothing, shelter and fuel. Is this wise council? To me, yes. Why is that? because I have been homeless several times. Not having a place to rest your head, not having a place to come home to is not a good place to be. Being able to provide for oneself and those that are under your care is not just a responsibility, but an obligation.

So, yes, granted there have been statements made in the early days of the church that were mere opinions, but there were also things made in those days that may not apply to us today because they were applicable for that generation and that time.

So, yes, I concur that we have a responsibility to not only follow the council of the Apostles and leaders of the Church, but to do it prayerfully and observantly.

And, sometimes, what one Apostle may say and council may not affect all of the members at large, but some of the members at large. What the Stake president might teach may not affect all families within that stake, just some of those families within that Stake.

So, yes, we ought to be mindful of what they teach and what they inform us about. Not that we give up our own obligations and responsibilities as individuals, but to recognize and understand that part of "sustaining" these brethren is to also listen to what they have to say.

[a-train]

What we cannot neglect to remember is why we follow a given prophet in the first place: because God told us to.

We don't follow the prophet simply because we have an arbitrary desire to follow someone. We follow the prophet because the LORD by His Spirit has told us directly that this man is a prophet and his counsel is the LORD's.

-a-train

[KristofferUmfrey]

I am appreciative of those who have brought up conflicting statements of your leaders saying it is folly to blindly follow a man, shows you have at least pondered the issue.

Now, there are some who say, "We should follow them obediently, receiving a witness of the Spirit". Perhaps you should read the full extant of HCK quote, where he says it is wrong to wait for a revelation or by the Spirit you should do as your told no matter what it is. The JOD is easy enough to find online.

These conflicting teachings (amoung others) are reasons why I could no longer in good faith be a member of the LDS Church. You never know what is going to be taught next.

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

I am appreciative of those who have brought up conflicting statements of your leaders saying it is folly to blindly follow a man, shows you have at least pondered the issue.

Now, there are some who say, "We should follow them obediently, receiving a witness of the Spirit". Perhaps you should read the full extant of HCK quote, where he says it is wrong to wait for a revelation or by the Spirit you should do as your told no matter what it is. The JOD is easy enough to find online.

These conflicting teachings (amoung others) are reasons why I could no longer in good faith be a member of the LDS Church. You never know what is going to be taught next.

Just for the record....the JOD is not doctrine.......and quotes from past leaders, Apostles or Prophets aren't always relevent to our day and time. Believing every past quote or obscure teaching is not a requirement of salvation. The only requirements are faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, Baptism, reciept of the Holy Ghost, Temple marriage and strive to live a Christ like life as best as we are able in this fallen sphere. Gain a testimony of these and the other things begin to make more sense....the Lord reveals sacred truths to each of us...... a little at a time, as we are ready.