Do you really concur with these statements?

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by Traveler

It does not appear to me that you have pondered anything but what you have been spoon fed by someone (most likely an organization specializing in religious bigotry) that really does not like the LDS people. If this is your personal study and you have read the entire Journal of Discourses and all the “Ward Teaching” messages for the last 100 years that would be one thing – but it is my impression that you have not. I apologize in advance if I have underestimated you personal study into LDS material.

I BELIEVE THE ONLY REASON THAT YOU THINK THERE IS CONTRADICTION IS BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING SOMEONE IS TELLING YOU!!!

This is a contradiction of your basic criticism – telling me you are at greater fault then those you would criticize. If you paid any attention to the presidential campaigns you would be aware that whenever a candidate gave a speech that the opposition was able to find “contradictions” within a few hours. That you must go back to over 50 over years to ward teaching material that is out of publication and somewhat unavailable to most of the public to find your contradictions tells me that you have come to this forum unprepared and with great bias.

Let us be honest. How many volumes of the Journal of Discourses have you read? And how many Ward Teaching messages have you read and where did you get them?

The Traveler

You are right... You DON'T know me very well and have no idea what I have read or how much I have studied. I have never in my life, except for an accidental passing glance, read anything that is anti-Restoration, ALL my studying comes from sources friendly to the Book of Mormon. All my study is independent, no human tells me what to believe, and anything I am told I take with a grain of salt, also I defend your church when somebody says something stupid I know isn't true when I COULD just let them go on believing what they like.
Just because somebody doesn't agree with all of your church's teachings doesn't mean they are not studied in the subject or brainwashed by Southern Baptist ministers.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by SeattleTruthSeeker

Here is a question for you? Have not many people within the "Christian Community" make worse and dangerous outlandish statements, teaching doctrines that are not supportive of the bible?

There are far more problems with some of the Christian Ministers who have taught destructive doctrines down through time and even today.

Look at the Health and Wealth Prosperity Gospel Preachers like Benny Hinn who stated that Christ would come and manifest himself at one of his "Healing Crusades".

Look at the greed of Trinity Broadcast network and the dangerous doctrines they teach. In fact, listen to some of those preachers who tell you to "Say to your Wallet, Wallet, be filled with money" and if it does not happen, then you lack your belief in God and do not believe he can honestly provide for you.

There are far more doctrines of Christiandom that are far more dangerously taught than what you are saying is from someone who has already passed on.

We have to look at the context of the society then than try to understand what was said 30 years ago and attempt to interpret in our understanding and society.

Guess what, how long ago was it when the admonishment of having a 2 year supply of food come out? I wonder how many members questioned the reason why... But now...let me see, Hurricane Katrina, Economic Crisis we are in, major natural disasters that are happening quite frequently. Yet, such an admonishment was stated about 20-50 years ago right?

So, I honestly think you are basing your decision on something that was said with a modern day society interpretation.

Exactly! So why should I believe your leaders outlandish statements anymore then I should believe the TBN crowd?

Do you think your church is the only one that has been teaching preparation for many years?

Do you think your church is the only one that has been teaching against porn and the breakdown of the family for many years?

LDS seem to think that there church leaders are the only people that recognized these and other issues early on, I can assure you they weren't alone in lifting a warning voice.

[AnthonyB]

I will presume the LDS posters are not advocating some form of "entire santification" doctrine, by which some marginal groups believe that certain people reach a level of santification in this life so that they not subject to the temptations of sin, transgressions etc. You do believe that prophets, apostles and bishops remain capable of sinning and disobeying God like the rest of us. That they can fall away and even give wrongful commands at times.

It is rather your saying that even if they give a wrong command then God will honour you obedience to that command, despite its being wrong.

However God declares he is the author of no sin, so how could he instruct one of his servant to instruct someone to sin. Therefore any command which causes you to violate your own conscience and according to Rom 14 something that violates a persons consience is a sin for that person, IMHO shouldn't be followed.

That doesn't mean defiance but humble willingness to standard by your own conscience and be willing to cheerfully receive the rightful response of the person in spiritual authority over you, even if that be punishment for your stand.

I quite like John Ralston Sual on this...

"Immorality is doing wrong of our own volition. Amorality is doing it because a structure or an organization expects us to do it. Amorality is worse than immorality because it involves denying our responsbility and therefore our existence as anything more than an animal"

[Hemidakota]

Only those who are immortal have reached 'total santification' in this life. We do know by record, two cities have done it and were removed to another concealed location. Then we have additional witnesses of those who never touched death and now living an immortal life.

However, there are those who have received the Second Comforter and in a sense, reach a level of santification but still retain 'agency' to choose for themselve to commit sin and capable in doing so. Problem with this type, they will have to pay for their own sins if not repented within mortality. Yet, these are they who will go to know end in repenting until their last breath.

The key to santification is given here but there are still others that must be applicable in life:

Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which santification cometh because of their yielding their hearts to God. (Helaman 3:35.)

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Only those who are immortal have reached 'total santification' in this life. We do know by record, two cities have done it and were removed to another concealed location. Then we have additional witnesses of those who never touched death and now living an immortal life.

However, there are those who have received the Second Comforter and in a sense, reach a level of santification but still retain 'agency' to choose for themselve to commit sin and capable in doing so. Problem with this type, they will have to pay for their own sins if not repented within mortality. Yet, these are they who will go to know end in repenting until their last breath.

The key to santification is given here but there are still others that must be applicable in life:

Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which santification cometh because of their yielding their hearts to God. (Helaman 3:35.)

Two cities? What's the other one besides Enoch? (which could be a whole other discussion, but I'll defer)

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Exactly! So why should I believe your leaders outlandish statements anymore then I should believe the TBN crowd?

Do you think your church is the only one that has been teaching preparation for many years?

Do you think your church is the only one that has been teaching against porn and the breakdown of the family for many years?

LDS seem to think that there church leaders are the only people that recognized these and other issues early on, I can assure you they weren't alone in lifting a warning voice.

I never said that they were the only ones that made any such points. That is a false conjecture to make.

Trust me, I understand where you are coming from. The only difference is this - and it is what someone told me. What does it matter what someone said or is claimed that they have said a hundred years ago? What significance does that have to do with you today? Are you honestly going to base your faith on what someone said a hundred years ago? If so, then, honestly and truthfully, it is the wrong thing to do. Why is that? Because, guess what the Roman Catholic Church considered those who believed that the Sun was the center of the Universe as they new and understood it were wrong, heretics and suffered grave condemnation. All because they believed something that the Church had taught. That teaching was that the Earth was the center of the then known universe and not the sun.

Yet, now we know that the Sun is not the Center of the Universe, but the Sun is at the head of our solar system. In fact, what is at the center of our galaxy is a large dormant Black hole (courtesy of the History Channel's "Universe" episode that was a repeat last night).

So, if you were to base your faith on such things and say that because of those statements made by people of that time then therefore 200 years later, one should stop believing in that faith and call it false.

Guess what, That is what the Jews were doing when Christ was born into mortality and they didn't believe even the miracles he did.

And Christ himself said that when you follow a prophet, you will receive a prophets reward.

So, Christ himself instructed us to Follow those whom God the Father has called to serve him.

And, finally, who are you to tell God that he is wrong for choosing such people?

Is the Abrahamic covenant invalid because Abraham was intimate with Hagar?

Is King David not in favor of God's love and mercy because of his adultry and murder of Bethsheba and her husband?

Should we discredit the Apostle Paul's epistles because he once persecuted the Church?

Should we not consider Peter a Disciple and apostle of Christ because Peter denied Christ three times?

According to your reason and logic, because a man said 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 years ago something that does not apply to us today we should discredit them and the Church at large - then we are to discredit any person who was called of God and not listen to what they taught. Guess what, that means even the Bible doesn't have any authority in one's life with such reasoning.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. >snip<if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."

I have the complete JOD at my disposal so I checked to make sure the Kimball quote is in context

So what?

This stuff gets so old.

Do you really think posting this is going to wake everyone up to the flaws in the Church?

Do you really think it's not something we, including this ex-Mormon, haven't heard over and over?

Do you really think we don't know the "thinking has been done" comment is a weak and shallow "anti" strategy to condemn the Church?

If you want to confront latter-day Saints, there are other and better arguments, though you still will not change anyone's heart.

Give it a rest already.

Elphaba

[Nappaljarri]

My stand point:

Prophet: Obedience every time
Bishop and Local leaders: I will pray about it and take my own life into consideration. The main point being why would I need the bishop's advice anyway. The church through the GA's give the most specific guidence necessary for normal members to live. I am not going to bring myself into some situation of terrible sin, so I will not need to go to him because of that. If I have life experiences (that are not gospel orientated), then I will consult myself first and husband first, and then bring it to God in prayer, he may alter the plan, or may say go for it, or may leave us to our own devices to allow us to step into the darkness with faith (this has happened many times in our life).

I must agree, there are many bishops who are not honorable men (lots in my own life). Thank goodness I didn not need their help, else I would have prayed alot before going to see them, and would have prayed alot after seeing them.

On a side note... I will never take the Sunday School teacher's word for gospel, neither the RS teacher's word for gospel, nor the crazy lady sitting down the back of the room. Those lessons are usually entertainment for me.

But I will re-iterate.... when the prophet speaks, I obey. Simple as that.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

You are right... You DON'T know me very well and have no idea what I have read or how much I have studied. I have never in my life, except for an accidental passing glance, read anything that is anti-Restoration, ALL my studying comes from sources friendly to the Book of Mormon. All my study is independent, no human tells me what to believe, and anything I am told I take with a grain of salt, also I defend your church when somebody says something stupid I know isn't true when I COULD just let them go on believing what they like.
Just because somebody doesn't agree with all of your church's teachings doesn't mean they are not studied in the subject or brainwashed by Southern Baptist ministers.

Let us try some honesty again. Your avoidance of direct questions leaves me to wonder what you are trying to hide. So I will ask my questions again.

Question 1: How many volumes of the Journal of Discourses have you read (where exactly did you get your quote?) I doubt it was from reading all 26 volumes of Journal of Discourses.

Question 2: Where did you obtain “Ward Teaching” material that is currently out of publication? Again I doubt you got it from any LDS publication, maybe some web site?

Since “Ward Teaching” material is out of publication I would like to know how you checked out the validity of that quote. I would like to check out “your sources” - the real ones.

The Traveler

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

So what?

This stuff gets so old.

Do you really think posting this is going to wake everyone up to the flaws in the Church?

Do you really think it's not something we, including this ex-Mormon, haven't heard over and over?

Do you really think we don't know the "thinking has been done" comment is a weak and shallow "anti" strategy to condemn the Church?

If you want to confront latter-day Saints, there are other and better arguments, though you still will not change anyone's heart.

Give it a rest already.

Elphaba

I just go with the topics as they come up. Ben R.'s "good enough for me." statement about Elder Oaks and white shirts prompted my current wave of conversation. If you don't like it, don't participate.