Do you really concur with these statements?

[KristofferUmfrey]

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)"

"Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, exhorted the Mormon people to "... learn to do as you are told, ... if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."


I have the complete JOD at my disposal so I checked to make sure the Kimball quote is in context.

[bytor2112]

Regarding matters of spiritual signifigance.....yep. I follow the council of the Prophet. If he says that we should be prepared and live within our means...then I strive to do that. If he says that pornography destroys lives and is a pernicious evil and should be avoided...I trust that he is correct. If he says that purple ties should always be worn on Thurdays...then not so much. We do have an ecclesiastical heirarchy in the church. Other churches do as well. In matters related to the Spirit we rely on our leaders for guidance. If I have been commiting some very serious sins like adultry.....I would confess to my Bishop and rely on his authority as a representative of Christ through the keys of Priesthood authority that he holds to guide me through the process of repentance. I am guessing Catholics are very similar as are other churches. Make sense?

[KristofferUmfrey]

Don't get mad, just looking for people's thoughts.

[Heavenguard]

My pastor is someone I know I can talk to when I have problems, but I am also very aware of his humanity and limitations. I truly don't believe anyone gets it right all the time, even if you want to say, for example, that Papal Infallacy only pertains to matters on faith. (And similar/parallel to the Prophet and the LDS church.)

Even Aaron's sons, who had God RIGHT THERE, in their own physical presence, seeing him with their own eyes, got it wrong.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)"

"Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, exhorted the Mormon people to "... learn to do as you are told, ... if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."


I have the complete JOD at my disposal so I checked to make sure the Kimball quote is in context.

Lool at it this way. If your employer tells you to complete a task, gives you the tools to complete the task and tells you how to complete the task, are you going to use different tools, complete the task in a different manner and way? If you do, and the task gets completed but not in the manner perscribed and laid down, causing the company loss in profits. Does your employer have the right to terminate your employment on the basis of insubordination?

In fact, when your boss asks you to do something (unless it is discriminatory, puts your health and life in danger/or those who work with you in danger) and you decline to do it, then are you not insubordinate?

Much like with the Prophets and leaders. People think that they should listen to the Prophet and Apostles when it comes to serious and obvious theological and doctrinal instruction. Yet, when it comes to the little things of faith, we tend to just reason and justify why we ought not to do those things.

How many members of the early saints murmured about the Word of Wisdom, trying to justify why they should have a beer, why they should smoke a little.

Now, we understand the health risks to drinking and smoking. There is empirical scientific and medical evidence to support the reason why one ought not to smoke and drink.

So, yes, when the Prophets and the Apostles say something, we should listen and listen carefully, prayerfully because what they say is just as authoritative as if Christ or Heavenly Father have said it.

Simple as that.

[OtterPop]

I think these can be very dangerous beliefs, in that they can encourage people to abandon responsibility for their own actions. Church leaders, even prophets, can be wrong. Have been wrong. (The JoD has plenty of statements that most people today believe are flat-out wrong.) And it's not always clear when they are speaking "as a prophet" vs speaking "as a man." I think it can set people up for a version of the "Nuremberg defense": I'm not responsible, because I was just following orders.

When I was LDS, I believed that we would stand at the judgment bar alone. Accepting counsel is one thing. Assuming that one need not reflect on statements because the thinking has been done is quite another.

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by OtterPop

I think these can be very dangerous beliefs, in that they can encourage people to abandon responsibility for their own actions. Church leaders, even prophets, can be wrong. Have been wrong. (The JoD has plenty of statements that most people today believe are flat-out wrong.) And it's not always clear when they are speaking "as a prophet" vs speaking "as a man." I think it can set people up for a version of the "Nuremberg defense": I'm not responsible, because I was just following orders.

When I was LDS, I believed that we would stand at the judgment bar alone. Accepting counsel is one thing. Assuming that one need not reflect on statements because the thinking has been done is quite another.

Very true.......we will stand at the great judgement bar of Christ alone. However, if I follow my Bishops council in some spiritual matter and he was wrong....it will be the Bishop who is held accountable by the Lord and not me. Prophets aren't always speaking as Prophets......often times as men...fallable men. So again I say, for spiritual guidance I do folow the Prophet.......for other things, I tend to work those things out myself.....with the help of the Spirit.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Very true.......we will stand at the great judgement bar of Christ alone. However, if I follow my Bishops council in some spiritual matter and he was wrong....it will be the Bishop who is held accountable by the Lord and not me. Prophets aren't always speaking as Prophets......often times as men...fallable men. So again I say, for spiritual guidance I do folow the Prophet.......for other things, I tend to work those things out myself.....with the help of the Spirit.

Do you really believe your Bishop will be accountable if you decide to follow his council and he was wrong?

What happened to agency? You are responsible for the choices you make, no one else.

Under this logic Hitler (if he had lived) is the only one that should have been convicted at Nuremburg, because they were just doing what their leader told them.

[john doe]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Under this logic Hitler (if he had lived) is the only one that should have been convicted at Nuremburg, because they were just doing what their leader told them.

Thanks, Kris! You just Godwined this thread.

[bytor2112]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

Do you really believe your Bishop will be accountable if you decide to follow his council and he was wrong?

What happened to agency? You are responsible for the choices you make, no one else.

Under this logic Hitler (if he had lived) is the only one that should have been convicted at Nuremburg, because they were just doing what their leader told them.

Yep....sure do. Not accountable for my sin mind you, just accountable for the council he gave. Why? Because he holds the keys of Priesthood authority....the authority to act in God's name.