Zelph and the land of cumorah

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by nimrod

Perphaps I missed it in the above posts but:

1. Final struggle - does not equal final battle. (could be several battles in the final struggle)
2. Eastern sea - does not necessarily mean eastern seaboard (ie: Atlantic Ocean) Many believe that the sea east in the BOM was the eastern Great Lake and Joseph may have referred to THAT. After all, Cumorah is close to the eastern Great Lake, NOT (so much) the Atlantic Ocean.

I do agree, it was Moroni's perception of what he thought was left of his people. Other Nephites, could have easily escaped and traveled south [South America] to escape the calamities, as well to other islands since they had the capabilities of shipping. Not to forget, further north as Jerry was alluded too. I do remember a few decades ago, a newspaper print of finding white skin native Amazonian tribes that looked out of place.

I do believe in what Norman Gath and Jerry Ainsworth given for that answer of the location of the eastern sea - namely the Gulf of Mexico.

[rameumptom]

The evidence for a New York Cumorah for the battles is just very weak.

The fortified structures are in Mesoamerica, not in New York. Written language was unknown in New York area until the British and French arrived. The numbers of people required for a final battle (over 130,000 on the Nephite side alone) were not available in the area, but definitely were in Mesoamerica. Snow is not mentioned, but hot temperatures and fevers (malaria) are, as well as the cure for the fevers (quinine from the bark of the Cinchona tree).

The Nephite region was short enough to cross with women, children and animals in less than 20 days. If we allowed for 20 miles a day journey, it would be at most 400 miles between the land of Nephi and Zarahemla! Moroni recognized the Hill Ramah of the Jaredites, and that it had been renamed by the Nephites as Cumorah - meaning he didn't run to and from New York area and Mesoamerica, but only made the trip once! It took him decades to travel to the area, but not for Mormon's entire people - so it must have been nearby, as suggested by BYU scholars, like John Sorensen.

[Justice]

It certainly says in the scriptures that Mormon was the one who buried them at Cumorah, and it also says that Mormon only "gave" Moroni the Small Plates of Nephi and the abridgement he made of King Benjamin to 4th Nephi. Moroni finished the record of his father, abridged the Jaredite record (which means he unearthed the plates at a later date), and then he wrote his own book, Moroni.

For the hill Mormon buried the record in not to be in New York means that Moroni took (presumably) everything his father buried, without those things being given to him by his father, and moved them a long distance by himself to New York.

Let's also remember that the land changed greatly after the time of Nephi, son of Nephi, when Christ came. And, that the last "struggle" happened over the course of many years. During that time the Nephites were "fleeing" from the Lamanites with great haste.

Mormon 5:
7 And it came to pass that we did again take to flight, and those whose flight was swifter than the Lamanites’ did escape, and those whose flight did not exceed the Lamanites’ were swept down and destroyed.

They had time to travel across this land many times over. At this last battle at Cumorah they still had 230,000 men in the Nephite army with their wives and children.

Mormon 6:
6 ...therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.
7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

"Hid" is past tense.

It just doesn't seem logical to me, nor does the spirit seem to whisper, that Moroni would take the chance and unearth the records his father made, seeing he never knew if he was going to be caught from day to day, and move them across the country.

Moroni 1:
1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.
2 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.
3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.
4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

To "wander withersoever" is very different than "take to flight." If it was between the army led by Mormon or Moroni by himself, it seems more logical that Mormon and the army under "flight" would move the record that great of distance. There was no way for one person to carry everything that was buried in the box. It seems Joseph, being large in stature, had difficulty even getting just the plates around under much the same "protect them" mode that Mormon or Moroni would have been under.

Again, it will not shake my testimony no matter where the true location of the Cumorah of the Nephites was. But, just looking at the text within the Book of Mormon and the situation of the Nephites, it makes much more sense that Mormon buried them in New York after "taking flight" from where he lived, and Moroni "wandered" around that area and returned to that location only when it was safe, never intending to unearth all the items in the box.

Sometimes the answer is right under our noses and we look for harder answers. Evidence outside the Book of Mormon has never proven anything contained within. I see this as no different. If the text gives clues as to what happened, that's the first and best evidence we have.

[rameumptom]

Why would Moroni have to take everything with him? The only time all the records were viewed in this dispensation was when the angel opened up the side of the hill for Oliver and Joseph to enter in and deliver up the gold plates.
As I see it, they could have been transported by the Spirit to anywhere in the world. I highly doubt one would find all those records in the New York hill Cumorah.

[Justice]

When Joseph Smith moved the stone away from the box, he saw a lot more than just the abridged record made by Mormon. He saw a sword, the Liahona, a Urim and Thummim, other plates... and many more items.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

Why would Moroni have to take everything with him? The only time all the records were viewed in this dispensation was when the angel opened up the side of the hill for Oliver and Joseph to enter in and deliver up the gold plates.
As I see it, they could have been transported by the Spirit to anywhere in the world. I highly doubt one would find all those records in the New York hill Cumorah.

I have to agree with this statement since it was not needful to transport what is already 'well hidden' in the earth [cave].

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by Justice

When Joseph Smith moved the stone away from the box, he saw a lot more than just the abridged record made by Mormon. He saw a sword, the Liahona, a Urim and Thummim, other plates... and many more items.

When Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery delivered up the plates to Moroni, what happen to them? Are they still buried in New York State or left in the cave of treasury [describing the many significant historical record artifacts?

[Justice]

A main point of my premise is that Moroni did not move everything, that it was buried by Mormon where it was found by Joseph Smith. If the Cumorah of the Book of Mormon is somewhere else besides the Cumorah of today, then either Moroni carried everything, or God provided a way for them to be moved. I believe the only other alternative is that Mormon buried them where Joseph Smith found them, which is what I believe the Book of Mormon text I have quoted is saying.

My MIL sent me a book for my birthday recently, titled something about Gold Plates. I'll find it and look up the reference, but it has many of the less known stories and quotes connected to the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and ties them in with the more common ones. In that book Joseph Smith reportidly said that the plates were re-hidden in the earth somewhere not far from the place he found them, but that he did not know where. We are still finishing building our house and I have little time to read, but it kept me interested for 2 chapters until I felt more important matters pressing on me. I need to finish it, I've enjoyed what I've read so far.

[Hemidakota]

Do you have a reference? If that was the case, the future Seer Prophet would have to go back and receive back those plates to complete the final translation of the sealed portion of the plates.

It was to make a person think or placed themselves in Moroni's place of what to do next. Sometimes I feel I am beginning to follow the same logical thinking as Doctor Jerry Ainsworth.

[Moksha]

Zelph's Last Song

How are things in Cumorah?
Does that River Sidon still flow to Sea East?
How are things in Cumorah?
Is that willow tree still weeping there?
Does that Lamanita with the twinklin' eye
Come smilin' by
And does she walk away,
Sad and dreamy there not to see me there?
So I ask each weepin' willow
And each brook along the way,
And each Lamanita that comes a-sighin'
Tooralay
How are things in Cumorah
This fine day?