"Second coming"?

[Dr T]

I know you're not asking me but what needs to be reconciled in Acts 9:4 - 5?

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Dr T

I know you're not asking me but what needs to be reconciled in Acts 9:4 - 5?

Jesus came and appeared to Paul (in a similar manner to coming to Joseph Smith) and the world did not end.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Originally Posted by Aesa

Yes, he did it after his ressurection.
But, he hadn't ascended into heaven yet, he'd only finished the 3 days in hell.

Strain at a knat yet swallow a camel...

This is immediately after His resurrection:

John 20:
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After, when He appeared to His disciples in the closed, locked room:

Luke 24:
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

If the reason Christ did not let Mary touch Him was because He had not yet ascended to His Father, and then He invited others later to touch Him, it is safe to assume He appeared to people after He ascended to the Father.

In any case, this really isn't the point.

The point is, the Book of Mormon is the great fruit of the restored church. Either the Book of Mormon is true, or it isn't.

I would never presume to tell Jesus when He can appear and when He can't. If He did something different than what I *thought* He said, I would assume I was wrong.

This is a perfect parallel to when Christ appeared in the flesh. Many rejected Him because *they* misunderstood the prophecies about His appearing.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by Justice

Strain at a knat yet swallow a camel...

This is immediately after His resurrection:

John 20: 17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After, when He appeared to His disciples in the closed, locked room:

Luke 24:
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

If the reason Christ did not let Mary touch Him was because He had not yet ascended to His Father, and then He invited others later to touch Him, it is safe to assume He appeared to people after the resurrection.

In any case, this really isn't the point.

The point is, the Book of Mormon is the great fruit of the restored church. Either the Book of Mormon is true, or it isn't.

I would never presume to tell Jesus when He can appear and when He can't. If He did something different than what I *thought* He said, I would assume I was wrong.

This is a perfect parallel to when Christ appeared in the flesh. Many rejected Him because *they* misunderstood the prophecies about His appearing.

You guys need to get on the same page. Aesa is talking about His ascension into heaven at the beginning of Acts.

WelcomeHome

[Elgama]

Originally Posted by Dr T

I know you're not asking me but what needs to be reconciled in Acts 9:4 - 5?

I think confusion came because Aesa did not understand that Joseph Smith had, had a vision, and had seen it as Jesus returning. So whilst LDS would compare it to Paul/Stephen etc - Aesa was imagining something different and we didn't even have hold of different ends of stick it was 2 different sticks

-Charley

[Justice]

*My confusion* came from these responses to this quote:

Quote:
Well, in the NT it is clear Jesus returned to the apostles. It is clear that folks like Stephen saw him in vision.

Well, he hadn't even ascended into Heaven yet...

And then:

he'd only finished the 3 days in hell.

To me, that's not describing *after* the 40 days the Savior spent with the disciples on and off before finally ascending into heaven. That is clearly describing the time right after His resurrection where He just spent the 3 days in *hell* (the Spirit World), and ascended to His Father.

I read literally and attempt to write literally so I don't misunderstand anyone.

[Dr T]

Got it Traveler I thought u were talking about something else. Thank you.
===

Thank you too Elgama

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Aesa

Sorry, I just made my post my clear.

There is just a problem with this whole vision.
What about the divering stories?

Different stories? Well, for starters, I don't think Joseph had a photographic memory.

In college, did you ever take a road trip? When you got home, did you tell your brother about it? What about your parents? A week later, did you tell someone at church? Do you look back now and relate stories from the road trip from time to time? Is your account the exact same every time? Do you remember the exact details every single time? Maybe some things fade while other parts become stronger. Maybe you emphasize certain parts of the story depending on your audience.

How is this scenario different from Joseph Smith giving differing accounts of the First Vision?

Regardless of the versions, I focus primarily on the account given in the Pearl of Great Price, as it is the one that has been included in LDS Canon.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by KristofferUmfrey

His coming in glory isn't until the the "Second Coming", He can visit His prophets whenever He feels like it.

Sounds good. The incidents referred to could have merely been a holo-projections.

[Aesa]

How is this scenario different from Joseph Smith giving differing accounts of the First Vision?

Seeing God the Father and God the Son, is a much bigger deal than going on a road trip.

I'd agree with you on your points if it weren't the major details that differ, as far as I can tell. You have the one where many angels (alone) appeared, etc,.

Tell you what if Jesus Christ visited me, I'd be out on the streets preaching Jesus Christ everyday. And I'd probably write about it the second I had the chance.

I'm sure you're aware that the 1838 account is the canonised one.

1832 Account:
[T]he Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> a pillar of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father . . . ."
Source: Smith, Joseph, Jr. (1832), "History of the Life of Joseph Smith", in Jessee, Dean C, Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, ISBN 1-57345-787-6, History of the Life of Joseph Smith - Wikisource

1835 Account to Joshua the Jewish Minister:
“being wrought up in my mind, respecting the subject of religion and looking at the different systems taught the children of men, I knew not who was right or who was wrong and I considered it of the first importance that I should be right, in matters that involve eternal consequ[e]nces; being thus perplexed in mind I retired to the silent grove and bow[e]d down before the Lord … I called upon the Lord for the first time, in the place above stated or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to p[r]ay … I called on the Lord in mightly prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; <and I saw many angels in this vision> I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed …”
Source: Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835 as found in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean C. Jessee, pp. 75-77; also in An American Prophet’s Record, p. 51.

William Smith:
Gave an account, of what he knew from his brother.
[A] light appeared in the heavens, and descended until it rested upon the trees where he was. It appeared like fire. But to his great astonishment, did not burn the trees. An angel then appeared to him and conversed with him upon many things. He told him that none of the sects were right; but that if he was faithful in keeping the commandments he should receive, the true way should be made known to him; that his sins were forgiven, etc.
Source: Smith, William (1883), William Smith on Mormonism: A True Account of the Origin of the Book of Mormon, Lamoni, Iowa: RLDS Church, Smith History Vault: 1883 William B. Smith book .