"Second coming"?

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

Chill out. Hemi was being facetious.

U da man! Yes I was...however, the church does have and holds many scrolls. What importunacy are they today? We will never know. Though, it really doesn't matter.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by Heavenguard

Two few points I'd like to bring up:

The book of Mormon teaches that Jesus did indeed appear in the flesh - and not just in a vision - post-ascension: he appeared among the Nephites in America. I have no sort of conclusion to this matter, I just wanted to point it out, since nobody else had.

Next, the differences in the gospels can't be compared to the differences in Joseph Smith's accounts, as four different people wrote the gospels, and Joseph Smith is the single source of his accounts.

If four people were to tell exactly the same story four times, the logical conclusion is that they collaborated together to concoct (or at least "iron out the details of") the story. This is an understanding that police and investigators use to catch falsehoods in alibis. Conversely, I would have to agree that the differences between the appearances of an angel, Jesus, and Jesus and God are very major points of differences. It's not quite the difference of 'there were three guys sitting at the table across from me' and 'actually, there were four'. Its the difference between 'a heavenly host' and 'the Creator of the universe'.

Same goes to the argument of Job, is he real or fictional character? A few BYU professors beat this to 'pulp' but my reply was, if the Lord mentioned it in the D&C, then he was real. Now that there has been latter discovery of various OT and NT texts from different location, comparison to what is canonized can be made. Accuracy? Without the aid of a Seer, then we are still at the mercy of someone interrupting the manuscripts. Noting that Joseph was a Seer, if anything was not right, he would have mentioned it to be fraudulent. However, he never did but corrected the clergy earlier mistakes Somthing to think about...

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Same goes to the argument of Job, is he real or fictional character? A few BYU professors beat this to 'pulp' but my reply was, if the Lord mentioned it in the D&C, then he was real. Now that there has been latter discovery of various OT and NT texts from different location, comparison to what is canonized can be made. Accuracy? Without the aid of a Seer, then we are still at the mercy of someone interrupting the manuscripts. Noting that Joseph was a Seer, if anything was not right, he would have mentioned it to be fraudulent. However, he never did but corrected the clergy earlier mistakes Somthing to think about...

Actually Joseph was not a Seer as the angel had taken the Urim & Thummim and he gave the Seer Stone away saying he didn't need it anymore. There has not been a Seer since that day. Prophets and Revelators, yes, a Seer, no.

Where does Bro. Kris come up with this crazy stuff?...

"72 Now Ammon saith unto him, I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records: for he hath wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date: and it is a gift from God.

73 And the things are called interpreters; and no man can look in them, except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he had not ought, and he should perish.

74 And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer."
[Mosiah 5 (1990 Temple Lot Edition)]

[Aesa]

But, still in the end, obviously Joseph told people of all his vision accounts.
No one mistakes "Jesus and God" for "many angels," nobody is that stupid.

[Hemidakota]

Are you referring too the FIRST VISION Aesa?

[Aesa]

I'm reffering to all the different accounts of the first vision, yes.
This, as far as I'm aware, isn't just a discussion of the canonised 1838 edition.

[Hemidakota]

I only know the canonized version which is published by the church. What he saw, was two beings. What he felt was the evil presence of an evil force. What he was told, he could write of which is given but what other things he did see, he was not allow to write.

Those two beings, were not angels but GOD the FATHER and Jesus the Christ.

[Aesa]

Okay, then, lets take a look for the second time in this thread.

The earliest extant account of the First Vision was handwritten by Joseph Smith in 1832, but it was not published until 1965.

[T]he Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in <the> attitude of calling upon the Lord <in the 16th year of my age> a pillar of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father . . . ."
Source: Smith, Joseph, Jr. (1832), "History of the Life of Joseph Smith", in Jessee, Dean C, Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, ISBN 1-57345-787-6, History of the Life of Joseph Smith - Wikisource

On November 9, 1835, Smith recorded an account of the First Vision in his diary that mentioned a vision of two unidentified personages and "many angels" when he was "about 14 years old." Jesus is identified as the Son of God, but neither "personage" is identified with Him. Smith also noted that he had another vision in his bedroom when he was 17. Unlike previous and subsequent accounts, there is no mention of all churches being condemned as corrupt.
Source: One Two

These are just some of the non-canonised 1838 editions.

Grant Palmer has noted that Joseph Smith had a clear motive for changing his story in 1838, a period of crisis within the Latter Day Saint Movement. At the time there was open dissent against Smith's leadership. A quarter of the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and some 300 members—perhaps fifteen percent of the total membership—had left the church. Palmer argues that Smith "fearing the unraveling of the church," wrote a new "more impressive version of his epiphany" in which Smith claimed that his original call had come from God the Father and Jesus Christ rather than from an angel.
Source: Palmer, 248-252. Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer were excommunicated on April 12-13, 1838. The following week Smith contemplated rewriting his history. On April 26, he renamed the church. The next day he "started dictating a new first vision narrative." (248)

[Hemidakota]

Did you retrieve that from anti-mormon site? Here is usual help for resource:

First Vision accounts - FAIRMormon

[Aesa]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Did you retrieve that from anti-mormon site? Here is usual help for resource:

First Vision accounts - FAIRMormon

I personally don't trust fairwiki because so many things can easily be refuted from it.
The apologetics is generally weak.