What is the need for atonement?

[ninjormon]

First of all I am kind of ashamed for even needing to ask this question, I have read it in a book before but dont remember which one and I read an average of 10 pages an hour, so to remember which one would probably take weeks of searching, so I thought I would ask here.

I understand the basic need of needing the atonement because we ourselves have sinned distancing ourselves from God through a spiritual death and therefore needing Christ as an intercessor to atone for us as we could not do it for ourselves. And that once we accept then we are accountable but also covers all with lawlessness. I need help not on the what but why. If someone can get as technical as possible with the degrees of intelligence and universal laws it would be a great help.

[bytor2112]

Check out this talk by Cleon Skousen......very interesting.


The Atonement, by Cleon Skousen reperiendi

[tomk]

There is an excellent talk on "why" the Atonement was necessary by the late Cleon Skousen:

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement Cronk


This same talk is available for purchase. Let me know, or just google it.



It boils down to this. God is a god of law. He, too, must obey eternal law, just as we must do in order to return back to Him.

But after the Fall of Adam and Eve - returning back to Father became impossible. Death and Sin were not things we could conquer, unaided.

So the Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to "atone" (make as one). Christ suffered so horribly in the Garden and on the Cross that the "intelligences" which comprise all matter were moved with compassion. Not for our sakes, but for His sake, we can be exalted and brought back into the presence of the Father again. Christ is our advocate. He can claim us as "His" - He earned the right to do this by the things He suffered.


Skousen does a much better job of explaining it than I do.



Consider this verse:


Mosiah 15: 9
9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.


Who is demanding justice? It's not God. It's not Christ. They are all about mercy. The entire Plan of Salvation is merciful!!!!!

The demands of Justice are the intelligences which comprise the universe. The things that ACT (intelligences) and the things that are acted upon (element) are the building blocks of all existence.


Now look at this verse:


Alma 42: 24
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

The Atonement does not prevent punishment, it reverses the effects. Christ said that our sacrifice is to be a broken heart and a contrite spirit (we must be penitent, willing to obey). The verse does not say "none but the truly PERFECT are saved" !!!! It says "none but the truly PENITENT are saved" !!!! It's not about perfect performance, but rather about our relationship with Christ.



Does this help any?

[applepansy]

Yeah. . . what Tom said.

applepansy

P.S. I started a post, but Tom beat me to it and did a better job. My age is showing again

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by ninjormon

First of all I am kind of ashamed for even needing to ask this question, I have read it in a book before but dont remember which one and I read an average of 10 pages an hour, so to remember which one would probably take weeks of searching, so I thought I would ask here.

I understand the basic need of needing the atonement because we ourselves have sinned distancing ourselves from God through a spiritual death and therefore needing Christ as an intercessor to atone for us as we could not do it for ourselves. And that once we accept then we are accountable but also covers all with lawlessness. I need help not on the what but why. If someone can get as technical as possible with the degrees of intelligence and universal laws it would be a great help.

The simple answer is because of the fall of Adam all mankind are fallen and thus cast out from the presents of G-d (the tree of life). Therefore there must be a "keeper of the way" to the tree of life and all must enter by that way. (See Genesis 3:24)

The Traveler

[tomk]

Originally Posted by applepansy

Yeah. . . what Tom said.

applepansy

P.S. I started a post, but Tom beat me to it and did a better job. My age is showing again

Go ahead and post your thoughts and feelings!! We learn by sharing.



I did a lot of study and research on the Atonement -- BECAUSE I realized "I really don't understand it". And I still don't really understand it -- only as God chooses to reveal it to me, bit by bit.


A few excellent books on the subject are:


Not Left Comfortless: Books I've Read


of particular note are:


Amazon.com: The Infinite Atonement: Tad R. Callister: Books

Amazon.com: The Atonement of Jesus Christ: A study of the saving atonement of Jesus Christ: Kevan Kingsley Clawson, John Hopkins, Jaime Clawson: Books

and

Amazon.com: A Scriptural Discussion of Light: Allen J. Fletcher: Books

[Hemidakota]

What is law according to the scriptures? Who is the author of such? If GOD is not the author of the law but one who enforces the law, then why the need of an Atonement? What and who is Justice? When Lehi speaks of Intelligences, one to ACT and the other to ACT UPON, what does this have to do with the Atonement and Justice? Was it necessary for a sin-less man to accomplished this feat? Why?

Things that need further explanation in order to have a greater depth of understanding of the Atonement vice references. This subject is not to be taken lightly.

[applepansy]

Originally Posted by ninjormon

I understand the basic need of needing the atonement because we ourselves have sinned distancing ourselves from God through a spiritual death and therefore needing Christ as an intercessor to atone for us as we could not do it for ourselves. And that once we accept then we are accountable but also covers all with lawlessness. I need help not on the what but why. If someone can get as technical as possible with the degrees of intelligence and universal laws it would be a great help.

My thoughts on this are two fold. One is that when "Adam fell that man might be" we all became condemned. Justice must be satisfied and the only person who could do that was someone without Sin - Jesus. We cannot return to our Heavenly Father's presence without the Atonement, nor without the Grace of Christ.

Second, the Atonement does something else for us. When we accept or embrace Christ's sacrifice for us personally, we soften our hearts. We in essence say "I can't do this alone." We change! When we soften our hearts and become more Christ-like it is easier to repent and its easier to forgive. All things become possible. This is where I believe the LDS doctrine of "faith without works is dead" comes in. We have to accept and show our acceptance through obedience to the laws and ordinances of our Heavenly Father.

I know that without Christ's Atonement and applying it in my life, my faith wouldn't have been as strong as it is. The Atonement a living thing for me. I do not have the words to describe the feelings I have when the Atonement is working in my life.

I know that what I need to do now is to continue to identify areas I need to improve on and continue to repent and let the Atonement work in my life even more. I want to be as perfect as I can achieve (I have a long way to go) so that Christ knows how much I love Him and how much I appreciate His sacrifice on my behalf.

applepansy

[ninjormon]

Thank you bytor2112 and tom, This is exatly what I was loking for, I have been talking to a coworker that I found out was a muslim sheik in charge of their temples in nevada, utah, and arizona and I just couldnt find the words to explain when I needed them but I told him I would study, I got him to admit Thomas S Monson is a prophet and start reading the BOM, and many other things things pertaining the gospel. I found out that a lot of Muslims have closer beliefs to us than some Christians and are more open to discussion and acceptance of a lot of gospel topics.

[tomk]

If you are working with an investigator...I would not even bring up Skousen's ideas.

Milk before Meat. And often what we think is Meat is still Milk.