The Godhead & Grief

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Dr T

I wonder if your dad thinks that grief is an emotion that is outside his view of God's perfection (such as "wanting" or needing something) and has a hard time thinking of God in that way? Hmmmm...have you talked to him any more about it?

I think you are on to something here. That is a selfish view of grief verses a compansionate view of grief concerning others. We are told the the worth of a soul is great in the eyes of G-d. We are also told that the L-rd will leave 99 to bring back the one. Therefore, I believe that we can conclude that the loss of a single soul is grief in the heart of G-d.

I also wonder if the loss of a soul is grief in the heart of "real" Christians that have come to understand the love, mercy and compassion of G-d. That there is rejoycing in those that are gathered in but grief and sadness for those that are lost.

The Traveler

[OneEternalSonata]

It seems to be, Dr T. His latest thoughts were, "I don't know. No, I do know..." [God doesn't grieve]. He seems unclear. He hasn't studied and prayed on it, as he indicated to me. I think that's my next step, asking him to pray and inquire. I have a personal witness from the Lord concerning this matter, and it'd be nice to find harmony with him in this belief.

[Dr T]

Originally Posted by Dr T

Thanks Traveler. As I read that my mind flashed on a verse and since my mind is not working too well at the moment I can't dig up the reference off the top of my head at the moment. I'll finish work and then look it up. I wrestled with that verse when I read it. I'm thinking 1 Peter for some reason but again, I don't have the reference for it. It said something about those that say they don't are liars. I'll check it out in the next few days. Thanks for your thoughts.

I was off on the 1 Peter thought I had but it was in 1 John 1:10 which says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." Or 1 John 1:6 which says, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not live by the truth"

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by OneEternalSonata

Hemi, wouldn't that also mean Jehovah, before the meridian of time, was unable to grieve? I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. It seems you could be implying the Holy Spirit cannot grieve with us until he has tasted of such emotion in the flesh. Is that what you mean? If so, I'd have to respectfully disagree. While the HS may not have experienced mortal grief yet, surely he does grieve. "...the Spirit is grieved... Amen to the priesthood of..." Also, the sons of God shouted for joy premortally, so wouldn't that also denote emotion such as grief? Maybe I'm on a tangent, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

Spirits can grieve but experience cannot be felt on the same level as those of a mortal body. There is difference of levels to which I am speaking. In comparing the difference here, experiences being described is no different than an apple being compared to an orange.

If you are not clear on what I am referring too, then ask the Holy Ghost for yourself or look across the veil. There is a reason why we want these mortal bodies beside being with our Heavenly Parents for eternity. Even the Holy Ghost looks forward with receiving His mortal flesh on this earth.

Yes! My writings is not always clear as my thoughts are. Thanks.

[OneEternalSonata]

Thank you for clarifying, Hemi! You and I are in accord on this doctrine, just wording things differently. I realize grief in premortal robes is not grief in mortal clay. =) I am always glad to hear your thoughts.

[rameumptom]

Traditional Christianity has in its creeds that God is the "unmoved mover." LDS belief is that God is the "Most Moved Mover", which traditional Bible scholar Clark Pinnock and others are beginning to explore in the Open Theism movement.

LDS also believe that God is the most moved mover. He is fully engaged in a relationship with us, which means he opens himself up to us fully so as to enrich us and him in a mutually fulfilling experience of love.

God wept before Enoch before flooding the Earth. Jesus wept before the Nephites and prior to raising Lazarus. God is angered by our sins and rebellion, and shows mercy when we repent. God definitely is fully engaged emotionally in a relationship with us.

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by Dr T

Yes sir, that's exactly it. It is a person that actually begged for mercy and forgivenss and understands the pain and suffering we added to Crist. Then it becomes gratitude and awe imo and repeated thankfulness of and growth in Christ.

I agree with this concept. However, there are many traditional Christians who teach that one must just say, "I believe" and they are saved. There definitely are some very big divides even among traditional Christians.

I think God also experiences real joy when we repent and turn to him. While among the Nephites, after weeping for the sinners, Jesus prayed and then said, "My joy is full" because he sensed the Nephites had truly repented.

I see this joy in the story of the Prodigal Son, as well. I just do not understand St Augustine's concept of the unmoved mover. That just is not a god I'm interested in, because one cannot develop a real relationship with a being who is unmoved and uncaring (especially for those who believe in TULIP, where we have no choice but to be saved or condemned at God's whim). I do like Dr T's description of a relationship with Christ as a real one where we approach with gratitude and repentance and faith, and he lifts us up.

[Seanette]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

That just is not a god I'm interested in, because one cannot develop a real relationship with a being who is unmoved and uncaring (especially for those who believe in TULIP, where we have no choice but to be saved or condemned at God's whim).

"TULIP"? I'm not familiar with that one. More info, please?

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Well then I guess there is a lot of grief in heaven....

[changed]

12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:
(Old Testament | Habakkuk 1:12 - 13)

If God cannot look upon evil, what does He see that makes Him weep?


10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall areturn, and come to bZion with csongs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
(Old Testaent | Isaiah 35:10)

Will heaven be a place of sorrow, joy, or both?
How is it possible to have "everlasting joy" for those who become as God?

The best of times is often coupled with the worst of times... It would be comforting to think of God as a happy being - to have hope that we would one day become 100% happy too...