Appearance of Evil?

[Snow]

Originally Posted by sjdean

Yes I do, because I clearly do not understand your definition of drunk.

You offered to be generous earlier and suggested I don't understand the meaning of drunk, if I don't, then I clearly need you to help clarify that.

It seems to me however, you equate being drunk with that of being an alcoholic. As drunk by and large means any state of mental impairment, well, one can certainly therefore be drunk within one to two pints of beer, and yet you make the case that to be drunk means to be completely out of control, means drinking to excess. How can this be when people can be drunk from only two pints?

Perhaps I do need your definition!

You may be the only person I've run across that does not understand the meaning of "drunk" despite 1. I've already given a definition, and 2. You claim to get drunk.

Here's some help:

American Heritage: Intoxicated with alcoholic liquor to the point of impairment of physical and mental faculties.

Websters New World College: overcome by alcoholic liquor to the point of losing control over one's faculties;

In California, for the purpose of driving, it is defined as: 1. drinking to the point that one's ability to operate a vehicle safely has been compromises; and 2. .08 or greater.

And as you know perfectly well from having read my posts that I do not equate drinking with being an alcoholic. It won't do for you to misstate what I said since what I said can be re-read by anyone.

This is so far removed from reality for many people. There are a good many people who "get drunk" in a controlled fashion. Getting drunk means impairment. It means intoxicated. It does not describe a behaviour, an addiction, or a problem.

Great. People who get drunk in a controlled fashion... drunks who follow a plan seem so superior to those that get drunk extemporaneously.

Well I will stick with your defence on that one, as Im not a regular drinker. Never said I was. Figment of your imagination that one.

... said by someone who drinks to the point of being drunk and ends all his posts with a drinking toast.

For someone not bothered about what I do, you certainly spend a long time arguing with me?

Cheers
Simon

Which I suppose is a passive aggressive way of saying that I really do care that you drink?

[sjdean]

Hello again Snow, my old friend. I can only presume the only reason why you haven't done me the courtesy of taking this discussion *which was never about alcohol but the appearance of evil and avoidance,) away to the private message that I initiated to you, is because you want to get a rise.

This, combined with the fact you understand the spirit of the word of wisdom but argue against literal wording suggests you are a troll of the highest magnitude.

Now I got another question for you. How many pints of lager at around 4.5% does it take for you to reach "Excess"? How many pints does it take to become drunk?

I think you'll come out with one of three answers. I wonder which one you'll pick.

I have "low", "number plucked out of thin air" or more "trollish behaviour" (such as excess means being drunk).

I wonder why you think "Cheers" is a toasing phrase? No doubt if I tell you Im not even thinking about alcohol when I write that, you'll tell me Im thinking of it subconciously and hence the evil grip it has got over me.

Cheers
Simon

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by Traveler

It is most difficult and illogical to me why anyone would start down a path they do not intend to travel or a destination they openly admit they have no intention of reaching. There is also something peculiar about alcohol in that the earliest effect is to inhibit the ability to realize that it is having a detrimental effect on reason. Which is why someone should not ever drink and drive – which we all know – but still alcohol is involved in 80% of fatal accidents.

The Traveler

Hrm. An odd thing to say. Most who drink don't drink to get drunk. Their motive is to enjoy the beer and the company.

You may as well ask why someone who eats has no intention of becoming obese.

This seems to be a bit of a problem that there would appear to be many closet alcoholics who think that alcohol has to be abused and anybody who doesn't abuse it is a secret abuser. It's like going on one of those psychology things, you have to admit you have a problem, but everyone is deemed to have a problem, even those that don't!

Alcohol does have a detrimental effect on reaction times. But when I walk to the pub with my friends and catch a taxi, Im not driving. Again there is this equation that someone who is incapable of driving through alcohol, is pretty much incapable of anything else.

That's so far removed from the truth to beggar belief.

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by sjdean

Hrm. An odd thing to say. Most who drink don't drink to get drunk. Their motive is to enjoy the beer and the company.

You may as well ask why someone who eats has no intention of becoming obese.

This seems to be a bit of a problem that there would appear to be many closet alcoholics who think that alcohol has to be abused and anybody who doesn't abuse it is a secret abuser. It's like going on one of those psychology things, you have to admit you have a problem, but everyone is deemed to have a problem, even those that don't!

Alcohol does have a detrimental effect on reaction times. But when I walk to the pub with my friends and catch a taxi, Im not driving. Again there is this equation that someone who is incapable of driving through alcohol, is pretty much incapable of anything else.

That's so far removed from the truth to beggar belief.

I have said this before, but I don't think that everyone who drinks gets in trouble. Nor do I think that everyone who drinks is in denial about their evil drinking habits.

What I do suspect though is a denial about the dangerous nature of the drinking behaviors and some of the corruptive culture that goes along with it. It seems like the "It won't happen to me" syndrome (among many other justifications and erroneous beliefs about the behaviors). I think there are many that allow themselves to stupidly walk too close to the edge of the cliff and deny the danger in doing so. I wonder how many alcoholics planned to become such.

I don't think I am referring to the retired professor who enjoys a glass of wine with dinner. Maybe I am referring to the college drinking practices. Maybe I am referring to folks who bar hop every Friday night. Maybe I am referring to the business man who isn't really aware of how much he drinks at lunch and isn't aware that his faculties are altered because he has done this everyday for so long that he can't see the truth.

Coming back to the original intent of the OP, I really do think it comes down to a culture that has lost its way in terms of valuing self control, personal responsibility and decisions of character.

[Misshalfway]

Maybe the issue isn't about alcohol at all. It is about people and what they do with their alcohol.

In my house, if my kids don't keep the kool aid in the kitchen, then they don't get kool aid! Wish it worked the same way with drivers licenses.

I sometimes see the WofW as something similar to this. I think God knows that this modern culture can't really handle the rabid temptations and enticing traps of Satan. God knows what is really going on here in terms of the spiritual war that is at hand. I think those who want protection from the slippery slope can find it.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by sjdean

Hrm. An odd thing to say. Most who drink don't drink to get drunk. Their motive is to enjoy the beer and the company.

You may as well ask why someone who eats has no intention of becoming obese.

This seems to be a bit of a problem that there would appear to be many closet alcoholics who think that alcohol has to be abused and anybody who doesn't abuse it is a secret abuser. It's like going on one of those psychology things, you have to admit you have a problem, but everyone is deemed to have a problem, even those that don't!

Alcohol does have a detrimental effect on reaction times. But when I walk to the pub with my friends and catch a taxi, Im not driving. Again there is this equation that someone who is incapable of driving through alcohol, is pretty much incapable of anything else.

That's so far removed from the truth to beggar belief.

Absolutely not true. Alcohol is consumed for its effect – which is to make people drunk to varying degrees. Many other liquids could be consumed that does not impair a person or make them drunk (have no effect or buzz). I had to laugh at the notion that you like beer. You would not drink it without alcohol – which is what you are really after. And the company – give me a break. A rational person could do all that much more effectively without a drop of alcohol - ever.

Your excuses are illogical and ridiculous – and if you are unable to socialize without the alcohol crutch (long term or on a permeate basis) you are not as beholden to your social circles as you think and are much closer to alcoholism than you character is strong enough to realize or admit.

The Traveler

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

I have said this before, but I don't think that everyone who drinks gets in trouble. Nor do I think that everyone who drinks is in denial about their evil drinking habits.

What I do suspect though is a denial about the dangerous nature of the drinking behaviors and some of the corruptive culture that goes along with it. It seems like the "It won't happen to me" syndrome (among many other justifications and erroneous beliefs about the behaviors).

And I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment and couldn't have put it better myself. It can corrupt. It can be dangerous. It can be abused. Most things can be abused I guess with "justification". Such as, oh, one more won't kill me.

I've seen something similar recently myself where instead of drinking when I want to, Im doing it for the sake of "friendship", and I didn't like that. Hence the post about "appearance of evil" and avoidance and that idea struck a chord.

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

Maybe I am referring to folks who bar hop every Friday night.

Routine drinking. The time when you realise you're drinking just for the sake of it. Not because you want to, but just to drink.

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

Coming back to the original intent of the OP, I really do think it comes down to a culture that has lost its way in terms of valuing self control, personal responsibility and decisions of character.

And I don't see why those who choose to drink can't value those thing after having x number of drinks. I like to think I do.

To all the doubters... listen, I don't urinate up walls, or in door ways, I don't vomit in streets or in taxis, I don't become abusive, I don't start fights, I don't shout, I don't swear, Im still courteous, Im still polite, I put my friends welfare ahead of my own, I still say please, I still say excuse me, I still say thank you, I've never blacked out. It is possible. But many people don't have that sense of responsibility to cut off drinking before they get to that point. I do. I don't drink every day, I don't drink every week.

I first struggled with the Word of Wisdom. My interpretation of it, is it allows "mild drink" made from barley, and it distinguished for me quite clearly between "mild drink" and "strong drink" and if we assume "drink" to mean alcoholic, then clearly a beer is OK.

Of course though, through visiting this forum, I have learned that the Word fo Wisdom has been clarified, and that clarification does not need to be written down, because what comes from the mouth of the prophet at the head of the church is automatically scripture.

I like to think that's exactly what it means. Thank you again Misshalfway. Clear voice in a sea of frothing mouths.

Cheers
Simon

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Absolutely not true. Alcohol is consumed for its effect

That is one of many reasons. Not the exclusive one, and never necessarily included in all instances.

If it was consumed solely for its effect, explain to me why some people may only consume half a pint at lunchtime, and sip it? Let me guess, the retort will be is that it is "subconcious".

Originally Posted by Traveler

I had to laugh at the notion that you like beer.

So you've never sampled the different flavours at a beer festival? I have. Really quite unusual and different. Do you know some of the history of beer? Porters, stout, lager, ale, bitter. Quite fascinating.

Originally Posted by Traveler

You would not drink it without alcohol – which is what you are really after.

Don't ever try to put yourself one above me and assume what I am and am not after. This is the absolute height of arrogance.

I have thought hard about this and asked why exactly I would want to have any effects of alcohol and not be able to drive home? Being able to enjoy myself without means I can say quite succintly that I am most definitely not after the effects of alcohol.

Originally Posted by Traveler

And the company – give me a break. A rational person

Ahh. Im not rational then? Good, out come the daggers. Not only are you able to get yourself into my mind to determine why I do things (and indeed getting the basic facts wrongs), you merrily throw insults. Most becoming of you. And I wonder who the moral one is.

Originally Posted by Traveler

could do all that much more effectively without a drop of alcohol - ever.

And I have. But I like beer. Simple as. Why would I wish to give up something I enjoy? Cream cakes make me fat, but I like cream cakes.

Originally Posted by Traveler

Your excuses are illogical and ridiculous – and if you are unable to socialize without the alcohol crutch

Your assertions are presumptions and false. The second bit is a figment of your imagination not mine.

Originally Posted by Traveler

(long term or on a permeate basis) you are not as beholden to your social circles as you think and are much closer to alcoholism than you character is strong enough to realize or admit.

The Traveler

Seems like you assume that whenever I go out with friends I drink alcohol and thats it. Again that's the most presumptuous and insulting load of nonsense I have ever read. Completely untrue.

Apart from Snows.

[Dravin]

I first struggled with the Word of Wisdom. My interpretation of it, is it allows "mild drink" made from barley, and it distinguished for me quite clearly between "mild drink" and "strong drink" and if we assume "drink" to mean alcoholic, then clearly a beer is OK.

It doesn't need clarification, the whole point of strong in strong drink is to indicate the presence of alcohol, beer has alcohol thus its a strong drink. As opposed to soft drinks like Sprite or Root beer which don't contain alcohol as indicated by the use of soft, another way one could say soft would be mild.

You are aware that there are non-alcoholic barely drinks out there right? Namely barley 'tea' or barley water those would be an example of a mild barely drink not beer.

[sjdean]

Dravin, I really don't understand that at all, but each down to his own interpretation and understanding. But I do agree that the interpretation and I do think rightly, it makes a load of sense, no alcohol. And no tea or coffee. Or smoking. Or drugs. To be honest I already got my head straight now about the WofW and I don't want to try and think about it more.