Appearance of Evil?

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by ruthiechan

Unfortunately most bars don't just have drinking, they have smoking unless there are laws against that sort of thing. Waitresses tend to be a bit more scantily clad and the people can be quite crude in their language and mannerisms. Also, waitresses tend to ignore you if all you want is water.

Well you see in the UK, we now have a smoking ban in all indoor areas. Before this, although people used to smoke, it was no worse in a bar than virtually any other place in the entire UK.

Similarly we don't have waitress service at bars, only at restaurants. And the most scantily clad women aren't that scantily clad, in fact they're probably more covered up in a bar compared to a restaurant or even another customer service role.

Think bmy has a point that it is probably more about "culture" and "community" than it is necessarily about the venue, hence why some people think it's OK and some people not.

Originally Posted by Snow

Sure and I'd like to sell you my 14% share in Fort Knox for 180 cash money if you can get it to me before midnight.

The SINGULAR raison d'être for alcohol is its mind altering properties.
.
.
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If you are going to try and put one over on us, you'll have to be much more creative than that.

I expect an apology from you Snow, immediately. I find your presumption on how and why I drink and your insinuation that I am a liar completely offensive, insulting, arrogant, rude and hostile. I find your blinkered view that no one can enjoy alcohol outside of "Snows" parameters laughable.

I have already proven to myself that I do not need alcohol to have a good time and I behave exactly the same way while drunk as to when Im sober. Much of the effects I find are purely psychosomatic and dependent upon the surroundings and company you keep.

I can recognise however that people can use alcohol for a variety of reasons, it is such a pity you've jumped in somewhere with a narrow viewpoint and accused me of "putting one over".

Please apologise.

Cheers
Simon

[pam]

Actually I find Snow's comments not far from the truth. Generally speaking, the majority of customers I get on a daily basis purchasing beer tell me they drink beer because "they like the taste." What I find humorous is these same people come in daily to purchase a 30 pack of beer. Daily.

To say that someone acts the same sober or drunk is a fallacy to me. I've been around enough people who are drunk to know that is so totally not true.

As to the subject of avoiding even the appearance of evil: We have been counseled numerous times by our Church leaders to do just that. This is only my opinion by going into a bar leads us to "live on the edge" as one of our former General Authorities puts it. When they counsel us to avoid even the appearance of evil they don't always give specifics. Do they need to?

Again I find this another thread where we are trying to justify actions and thoughts based on the world and not on what we have been taught as LDS.

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by pam

Actually I find Snow's comments not far from the truth. Generally speaking, the majority of customers I get on a daily basis purchasing beer tell me they drink beer because "they like the taste." What I find humorous is these same people come in daily to purchase a 30 pack of beer. Daily.

While Im not saying that that doesn't happen, please don't tar all those that do actually like the taste with the same brush. I don't purchase or drink alcohol daily and if you met me, you would I think see that what Im saying about *myself* is largely if not 100% true.

Originally Posted by pam

As to the subject of avoiding even the appearance of evil: We have been counseled numerous times by our Church leaders to do just that. This is only my opinion by going into a bar leads us to "live on the edge" as one of our former General Authorities puts it. When they counsel us to avoid even the appearance of evil they don't always give specifics. Do they need to?

Im not quite sure what the specifics are, whether there is any distinction between a respectable pub where alcohol isn't the only choice, and say, attending a rock concert, or any other venue where the primary objective is not alcohol but is available.

Originally Posted by pam

Again I find this another thread where we are trying to justify actions and thoughts based on the world and not on what we have been taught as LDS.

Read my opening post. I haven't asked anybody to justify anything. What I've said, and I'll repeat again, is that I think some of the counsel the LDS are given is quite good actually, counsel that I would never have even thought about had it not been my own experiences, such as avoiding bars. *

For me though Im still not going to avoid, but Im going to be more aware of the influence, not necessarily a bar, but the people frequenting a bar can have in drinking to excess with no point other than to get smashed. I don't agree with the culture but found myself being pulled in. In a sense perhaps I am avoiding it.

But my second point was my uneasiness over the term "appearance" where I don't believe it's right to judge a book by its cover. If I were a Mormon I would probably still visit bars, not drink alcohol, but I'd still be there and supportive of my friends.

Perhaps by going to bars and drinking cola and orange juice, I can send a message to other individuals in similar situations that it's OK to have fun with your friends and not drink and you can have just as much fun.

Cya
Simon

* Yes Im saying some of the advice and counsel of the LDS has helped me to stand up and say no.

[mnn727]

From a Convert (of 16 years now)
It's easier to pick up bad habits if you hang around with people with bad habits.
The atmosphere of an establisment can influence your behavior -- whether its a temple or a tavern.
Your friends and their habits will influence you.

I converted in my mid 30's and prior to that I had spent my share of time in bars. Even for a time after (maybe 8 - 9 months I continued going to bars with friends - just didn't drink) -- hmmm not as much fun being a non-drinker in a bar

My goal is to become more Christ-like -- to emulate His life, to do what He said when He told His disciples to "Come follow me"
Can I do that going out to the bar with friends, maybe having a drink or 2 or even not drinking, probably hearing an off-color joke or two, perhaps listening to some bad language, associating (by being around in the bar) people who are drunk (even if my friends and I are not). Hearing "Aww come on 1 drink wouldn't hurt".
Perhaps you can do that, but I found it much easier not to be around it - and you know, my real friends understood that and we are still friends -- we just don't go to bars together anymore - we do other things together.

[pam]

While Im not saying that that doesn't happen, please don't tar all those that do actually like the taste with the same brush. I don't purchase or drink alcohol daily and if you met me, you would I think see that what Im saying about *myself* is largely if not 100% true.

No disrespect sjdean..but I'm not sure why we are debating why someone drinks on an lds site where we are taught to abstain from alcohol.

[mnn727]

Originally Posted by sjdean

I behave exactly the same way while drunk as to when Im sober.

Sorry, but that's not physically possible. You may believe that but anyone observing you (that wasn't drunk themselves) could prove you wrong. There are physical changes that take effect under alcohol consumption that just can not be denied or prevented.

[hordak]

Originally Posted by Snow

Sure and I'd like to sell you my 14% share in Fort Knox for 180 cash money if you can get it to me before midnight.


The SINGULAR raison d'être for alcohol is its mind altering properties. Take away it's mind altering properties and alcohol sales would plummet to Microsoft Zune levels, no matter how good you think it tastes.

If you are going to try and put one over on us, you'll have to be much more creative than that.

I disagree. Think Coke .

[mnn727]

Originally Posted by hordak

I disagree. Think Coke .

A bottle of Coke costs whole lot less than a bottle of Jack Daniels. IF Jack didn't have the extra 'kick' which would you buy; a 2 liter bottle of Coca Cola for $1.25 or a 1/5th of Jack Daniels for $15.99? or even a quart of cheap wine for $5.99

[BenRaines]

"appearance of evil" I don't think this has to have anything to do with how someone dresses or how they cut their hair or the clothes that they wear. I believe it has to do with locations, activities, language but not necessarily dress or appearance.

Appearance of activities that would be considered unholy.

Stand ye in holy places.

Ben Raines

[Snow]

Originally Posted by sjdean

I expect an apology from you Snow, immediately.

...and I expect that Charles Schultz will rise from the grave, draw a new cartoon of Snoopy winning the 2nd leg of the Tour de France today, and that through some disturbance in the space-time continuim, that cartoon will become a reality and Snoopy will, in reality, don the yellow jersey... let's all pray that Lance Armstrong can deal with it.

I find your presumption on how and why I drink and your insinuation that I am a liar completely offensive, insulting, arrogant, rude and hostile.

Offensive - insulting - arrogant - rude AND hostile?

Drat! I was also shooting for "scornful" and "querulous." I apologize for the oversight.

I have already proven to myself that I do not need alcohol to have a good time.

Irrelevant. I didn't address your "needs."

and I behave exactly the same way while drunk as to when Im sober.

1. You drink so in excess that you actually become drunk. Not exactly the kind of sharing that is helping your case but thanks for the self-disclosure. They say you can't get help until you admit you have a problem.

2. You don't have any idea what you are talking about. The definition of "drunk" is: "Intoxicated with alcoholic liquor to the point of impairment of physical and mental faculties."

... unless you are not in control of your mental and physical faculties when you are sober, then you might have a point.

I find your blinkered view that no one can enjoy alcohol outside of "Snows" parameters laughable.

I suppose a happy drunk is better than a mean drunk.

Much of the effects I find are purely psychosomatic and dependent upon the surroundings and company you keep.

I can recognise however that people can use alcohol for a variety of reasons, it is such a pity you've jumped in somewhere with a narrow viewpoint and accused me of "putting one over".

Alcoholic beverages, with mind-altering chemicals intact, are a $120 billion dollar industry in the US each year.

Sales or beverages with alcohol's mind-altering chemicals removed or roughly equivalent to Michael Jackson's chance of having a successful come-back tour.

Why? Because no one drinks alcohol except for the drugs it contains. Period. Take away the drug, and no one drinks it. Everything else... the taste, the ritual, the social context, etc, are simply adornments to the drug.

Please apologise.

Cheers
Simon

Mozoltov