Appearance of Evil?

[sjdean]

Please excuse any rambling from here on in.

Let me also go on the record first and foremost of saying I am not a Mormon, neither am I an alcoholic. Thought I'd get that in before someone comes in with that tenuous nonsense. I drink because I enjoy it. I don't drink regularly, or to alter my surroundings, my personality, give me confidence or to de-stress.

I was always a little perplexed when not only would Mormons not drink, they would not enter a bar even for some coca cola or orange juice. Some wouldn't even work in a bar (even though I think there is a requirement to stay sober) and some wouldn't even enter a starbucks for a hot chocolate.

I believe it is something that is referred to as the "appearance of evil".

However over recent weeks, the stance on alcohol mainly has hit me like a train. When you place yourself into a particular environment you can take on a little of the persona of the environment. It's easy to become relaxed and let your barriers fall and join in. The more the drink flows, the more inclined you are to drink because you relax your own rules.

I've realised that the company of certain friends means I drink a little bit more regularly or more in a night that I would normally do. Don't get me wrong, I've never been bad with alcohol. But I started to feel that I was getting into the situation of drinking to drink instead of drinking out of enjoyment for special occasions.

Maybe it's peer pressure, maybe it is the company we keep. Maybe it is a stance of "one more won't hurt", but if that was the case, then cream cakes are the most evil food on the planet.

Now don't get me wrong, I still plan to have a few pints from time to time. But Im going to decide when to do it, and no one else.

How does this come back to the appearance of evil? Im not entirely sure. I think for me, it probably means that it can be too easy to get too comfortable and complacent and let your guard down. Not that alcohol, bars, or certain people are evil par se, but we must be careful to retain our own self control and dignity and be wary of the influence of others.

Im not sure Im comfortable with the idea of avoiding the appearance of evil. The "appearance" of things can be very superficial and very false. What are some of the sayings? Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing? Don't judge a book by its cover? Judge not lest ye be judged? Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment? Some of the most "evil" looking people are actually some of the worlds most genuine, warm, friendly and nice people.

[lilered]

And your expectations are by posting here?

[BenRaines]

"Some of the most "evil" looking people are actually some of the worlds most genuine, warm, friendly and nice people."

I am curious what you base your judgment on this by? Most evil looking are most genuine, warm, friendly and nice people?

I know there are happy drunks and mean drunks. I have met a lot of mean drunks. While in law enforcement I rarely arrested clean cut, well mannered, genuine, warm, friendly and nice people. Most were dirty, filthy, foul mouthed, no regard for others, abusers. Feeling a little sarcastic here but I guess I missed out on the nice guys that appeared evil.

To me that would be like saying "I am going to hang out at the bar at a bordello. Only have an organge juice or a cola if I feel up to the danger element but I am not going to participate I just don't want the girls to feel that I think lesser of them for what they do so I will just hang out with them.

Ben Raines

[MissKitty]

For a start let me say there are many shades of grey, things are not always simply "good" and "evil" . I personally see no sense in why any one would want to pay to get themselves into a state of delirium that some poor souls have to wake up to each morning of their lives. Also I think there is much more fun to be had without poisening yourself. Also, I don't think Hitler was a warm, friendly person, but then I didn't know him personally.. hmm..

[sjdean]

lilered, what do you mean, my expectations? Really quite as I posed. Just, I never thought about alcohol and the effect that stepping into a bar with like minded individuals can have. Perhaps there is something in avoiding it. No temptation. No risk of "letting your guard down".

I never thought about it in those sort of terms before. So I think I understand more about how the idea of "avoiding the appearance of evil" works, even if I haven't given a text book explanation.

And Ben, when I say "evil" people, Im not just talking about drunks here. Im talking about just people in general. It's easy to look just at the superficialness, "judge a book by its cover", use stereotypes and stay away from people because they look "questionnable".

But my recent experiences have made me realise how wrong that is. I've been there, I've judged someone on their appearance, where they are, what they're doing (and I don't necessarily mean in a bar and drinking). But there are a lot of those people who quite simply have hit rock bottom, they need help, and they're polite, warm and friendly.

So I have a real problem with the word "appearance" because appearances can be deceptive.

So I sort of understand the philosophy of "appearance of evil", but I disagree with deciding something is evil based on appearance.

Sorry for any misunderstanding. Perhaps this should have gone under General Discussion instead. But it would be interesting to hear a LDS persons take on my ramblings because I may have a huge misunderstanding on the "appearance of evil".

With relation to your last paragraph - well, a bordello is a bordello, that's quite different to just a bar. I went out last night with friends, and made a point of just drinking cola. And I had a great night socialising. With no beer! But it was tempting.

Cheers
Simon

[Heavenguard]

I think the main "problem" in talking about alcohol consumption with LDS is that it is ultimately seen as evil, with little give. Now, that's not to say that excessive alcohol consumption does not lead to bad situations, but most people who drink do not have a problem with the evils associated with it. Most people don't drink to get drunk. The drink itself is an enjoyment. Some people like the taste. Personally, I think beer and most liquors and wine tastes disgusting, and only have vodka-based drinks myself. The reason I drink them is because I enjoy the slight burn as it goes down that you don't get with non-alcoholic beverages. Yes, some people are idiots and drink purposefully to get drunk, but even if they think drunkenness is fun, they're short-sighted morons because the hangovers that immediately follow are physically painful and taxing.

But that doesn't pertain only to alcohol, as so many innocuous things can be abused. Prescription and OTC medications are obvious ones. But even things like gasoline and household cleansers can be abused. Even seemingly good and noble things can become vices, when one becomes obsessed with a certain hobby, thing, or relationship, or obsessed with work. Obsession, reliance, and dependence upon things other than God are the sin.

The thing about alcohol (or any sort of abuse/over-use/reliance) is that it makes people feel better in the short run. That's why it's easy for people to use it to escape their problems and feel better. The problem is the crash afterwards when things aren't actually better, and so they have more. But that can be said of anything, really. Personally, I'm right now trying my best to not become too dependent on a person that I should not be dependent on in my most recent bout of depression (it comes and goes), and alcohol has played no role in any of this.

But to get to the point about appearances, I'm going to say that you have to be where people are to get to them. Jesus ate and drank and spent his time with the sinners of the day, and the righteous people noticed and were appalled. He didn't join in the fun, but he was one in spirit with them. Yes, we are in the world, not of the world, blah blah blah. But we are still in this world. We are participants in this life. To effectively be a 'real' person, we have to be with these people. I'm not saying to our LDS friends here that you should partake in drinking alcohol, or go to Starbucks to get a coffee, certainly not. But there's no reason to alienate these places either. They're places of social gathering, it's not the same as going to a bordello (I had to look up the word). One goes to a brothel, generally, to engage in sexual relations with someone that is not your wife. But one goes to a bar (or pub, I don't like bars myself) for the social engagement in the environment that a bar brings.

Now, all things said, one must also have the self-control to not engage. If one does not, then one should not go. As an extreme example, a convert who was previously an alcoholic obviously, obviously, obviously should never go. (Actually convert or not, a previous alcoholic should never go.) But we need to strengthen ourselves, and go to where the people are.

[Godless]

I agree whole-heartedly with what you said about peer pressure and social settings. I normally don't like to drink beer for the sole purpose of getting drunk, and yet I do exactly that whenever I go to Friday's or a local pool hall with my co-workers. When I'm by myself or with my more, um, responsible (for lack of a better word) friends, I drink beer for the taste, which is what I prefer. Sometimes I still get buzzed, or even drunk, but that's never my main objective when I drink craft beer.

I think I see what you're getting at with the appearance of evil. I agree that there's generally nothing wrong with drinking soda or juice at a bar. Nor is there anything wrong with cooking with alcohol. However, many LDS are still uncomfortable with these things, and that's okay. Sometimes it's better to err on the side of caution. Sometimes things that appear evil actually aren't. But sometimes they're exactly what they appear to be.

[glow_inthe_dark_girl]

appearance of evil to me doesn't mean if a person is clean and neat they good, a person is dirty is bad, I had a bishop that fixed cars u could see him when working and you would still see a good person even though some would think he was some kind of a bum ..


, sometimes we tend to see appearance of good and is something bad, u know looking at all the neon in a bar might look cool but its hiding something bad,.not that I think all the people that go to a bar is bad ppl, I had gone with the intention of not drinking.. to my shame I ended up drinking, I thought that going into a bar didnt mean that I have to drink, I said ok, Im going and ask for a lemonade, that's a little naive... If we know what is a bar for why go there if there are plenty of places that wont put tempetetion in your face... anyways I learned something in this experience and that was the first and last time I did such a thing..

we have to be alert to recognise evil form good, I think is hardest, we are not suppose to judge people, for LDS its so important to have the influence of the Holy ghost to dicern evil n good, this is the reason we dont drink alcohol , if we do we live the consquences and wont have the influence and company of the Holy Ghost..

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

[sjdean]

If you are avoiding a person that swears and shouts a lot and is generally bad, then you're not really avoiding the appearance of evil. You're just avoiding evil. The appearance for me is perception, but if that perception is proved, it is no longer perception but fact.

So if that isn't the appearance, then there must be only one other thing, and that is being "associated" with evil, or avoiding yourself appearing as evil. So, taking care to choose your friends wisely.

I think from my story and my realisation, this is perhaps good advice. The idea of me going to bar is purely to socialise. I do enjoy beer, but that often comes a second as demonstrated last night when I basically only drank coke. I was driving - but I could have caught a taxi home, but I decided to do something different. And you know what, I thought it wasn't that bad.

[minemouse]

Although I am not LDS, I dont' drink and I don't go to bars. I believe that the scriptures tell us--and I am paraphrasing--don't do anything good that appears to be bad. In other words why would I got to a bar to socialize , there are other mediums for that venue. There are family or friendly get togethers or even just calling friends up for an informal gathering is something good to do. Just because we live in the world doesn't mean we have to partake of everything everyone else does. Its like the age old argument parents have with their children :just because your friends do it doesn't mean you have to also. I have lived my life long enough to know that sometimes work friends hang out a bar to talk or what not and on some very limited occasions I attend but I don't partake of liquor. I drink water or something else. Sometimes I even suggest we meet at a restaurant or someone's home in order to get out of that environment. They have noticed that and now know that I don't like going there but they invite and its the norm nowadays to go to an atmosphere like that to socialize. In retrospect , I think about what some people's advice would you got to a mechanic to fix your computer, then why would you take your testimony as a christian and go to a bar even though your not drinking. Let's ponder about that one , my friends.